This is something that I see come up every so often, but seems a little odd to me. To expect another language, in this case English, to use another language’s name for itself seems an odd fit. The form of the word is not a comfortable fit for English and in this situation a word would normally be anglicised to fit within normative spelling and pronunciation expectations.
To use Cymraeg to refer to Welsh, when speaking English, would be like referring to Mandarin Chinese as pŭtōnghùa or take the sentence “Dw i’n siarad Sbaeneg”, should it now be “Dw i’n siarad español”.
I do understand that the etymology of the word ‘Welsh’ is problematic but I don’t think this is the answer. I think it is likely to create more push back and mocking than an increase in national pride.
Still, the more I mull over this, I think it’s all ελληνικά to me.
I withdrew my post, because i felt I made a bit of an error in posting something that. might take this thread in the wrong direction and i was being a bit confrontational which in hindsight was wrong. Happy to have theae sorts of discussions elsewhere though.
@HowlsedhesServices As you say you are interested in hearing why people think you are wrong, it would be interesting to hear your responses to posts which have done exactly that.
Incidentally, your theory in which it is implicit that your having less experience and knowledge of Wales and the Welsh renders you better able to speak on such matters than people with knowledge of Wales and the Welsh through living in or having been brought up in Wales is one which is interesting in a way, but I fail to see the logic behind it.
I’ve been racking my brain over the reason why. In my opinion, there are a number of very important questions raised by the government’s plans for 1M Welsh speakers by 2050: why only 1M, what happens after 2050, and what does the government think the future of the Welsh language in the very long term is? The implication appears to be, to me anyway, that the current goal will create enough momentum in its own right to secure the future of the language. Maybe. If true, it would be a very timid and risky plan. Demographics (on current trends, the goal should be 1.1M ), funding of education , the state of the Welsh nation and many other factors that will impact the language by 2050 are uncertain at this stage.
Taken up from what Cymdeithas yr Iaith came up with, Jamie Bevan I believe. It’s an iconic figure I suppose. Something specific to aim for. But yes, when I heard it first there, I thought it was a bit arbitrary.
And why 2050? As you say. Between now and then, all sorts of things will happen, changes of government, different people in power even if same government- different people alive, not being held by promises.
I can’t see why it couldn’t be achieved earlier.
Hopefully it will have a genuine impetus for laws and measures to work towards it, but an earlier deadline would be better (for whatever level of increase).
Edit - [They do actually ask for opinions on milestones to help achieve a long term objective, so fair enough, really.]
I do see your point, but I thought he meant in situations where the whole notice should be in Welsh (Cymraeg). Also, countries usually have some say in what they are called. I remember Rhodesia becoming Zimbabwe and Burma becoming Myanmar, or rather getting the world to use the name they should have had all through. So why not be Cymru???
I suspect I began before @aran and @Iestyn were twinkles in their Mam’s eyes and I entirely agree with your post!
I am guessing that someone has actually done some simple maths here. If you assume a high percentage will come through wm schoools, then pick a meaningful figure based on prior experience. If its an additional 300k through the school system, then how many extra school places and teachers does that equate to?
It is fairly simple maths and will follow back to start dates for phases, with teacher training being a large part of phase 1 and the motivational, PR sort of stuff for prospective parents and student teachers. If you assume this is all going to happen, then the implementation timetable should be a simple scheduling task, with milestones etc etc.
Sorry, I have to keep going here. Every area in Wales has unique sweet spots in terms of the language. In gwent, “men of steel” and chartists engenders pride. Use examples of tafodiaith to get people’s attention and interest - softly does it annd allow local interest to take over. In gwent, learning gwentian may be more empowering than Cymraeg. It is the same thing, but local ownerahip and pride is more important than standardisation.
I absolutely agree that a country should be able to choose it’s official name, but that name is normally given for each major language. To just use ‘Cymru’ in English without anglicising it risks its being referred to as “CUM-ROO”. I also think there are problems with raising the etymology of the word that would confuse and undermine those who are proud to be ‘Welsh’ and from ‘Wales’.
Ultimately this particular point is none of my business as it’s for the people of Wales to decide, but there is unfortunately some hostility in the English language media towards Welsh both inside and outside Wales and this is really the reason I decided to comment. I wouldn’t want a campaign to use the words ‘Cymraeg’ and ‘Cymru’ in English to undermine the advance of the Welsh language. The more I learn this language the more I love it and would dearly like to see a significant increase in its use and importance. I think the battle for a different name for Wales and Welsh could be a fight for the future, but not for now.
Also, we need our education system to teach Welsh history. Properly. Not a slightly warped version of that pushed by the establishment - that does nothing but peddle more lies. We need a media which speaks for the Welsh nation. If the Welsh government is asking what they should do, they should push for and support this media.
This is part of having an interest in your nation, part of having an interest in such things as the Welsh language.
And I mean interest in both its meanings.
The people of Wales have always had an interest in Wales, in its history, in ourselves as a people. We have kept the history and stories going, even when there were no institutions to back us up.
Now the institution of the Welsh government is in place, it should work for such things as the above.
Neither, emphatically, would I. I just wish someone in the BBC would teach their announcers, newscaasters etc how to say Cymru. The best they seem to manage is Cwm-ri!
To @owainlurch I agree with your last mailing, in spades!
The mangling of “plaid Cymru” on question time or whatever (often to “plaid cimroo” or anything else is an atrocity! I find myself boiling before the tv- I’m forced by law to pay your wages! Make an effort to get the pronunciation right! It’s the “BBC”, not the “EBC”!
Which would not matter so much if, as I say, I were not forced by law to pay their wages!
As I do, and my friends and family do, (but of course, people round here (Welsh speakers or not) don’t pronounce the first vowel in “Cymru” as English “i”) it’s both that and the “oo” or any variation on it which means that the BBC is taking money under force from the Welsh with no respect for the Welsh.
I have just been allowed to stop paying them, but I don’t think that alters my feelings! Actually, I am very confused. I am still not quite 75, but we transferred the licence into my name because Janet didn’t see why we should pay if the law said we need not! (I have this conscience about young people who can’t afford it and I can.) Anyway, we got a refund, not just of the little bit of the year after my birthday, but of what seems to be 10 months! We presume the first licence her mam bought started in March!
It seems a bit unfair on folk with birthdays in January and very good for those in December!
OFF TOPIC reply to @rob_bruce simple answer to would they watch it in abertyleri - no. I’m not from abertyleri, but when I was a child I hated having anything like that on my TV (my mother loved it). I’m in a minority of one here, since Eisteddfodau are much loved and I really respect that and the vast good that it does for the langauge, but I suspect more than a few of us out there will never be converts and will never see it as our cup of tea. It’s a personal thing, I used to despise the Southbank show as well and you wouldn’t see me dead in the Tate modern - so maybe I’m a bit of philistine, but plenty of us out there.
That’s the Urdd Eisteddfod you’ve just described, which gets wall-to-wall coverage on S4C for a whole week in the spring. I don’t know how you would get it on BBC1 or 2. Maybe we might see a highlights show on BBC4. Do they watch that in Abertileri?
I am sure the Eisteddfod Genedlaethol gets a daily, “Today at the Eisteddfod” slot on BBC1, just like Y Sioe Frenhinol. It wouldn’t hurt them to put a little item in Wales Today at 6.30 while the Urdd is on! I am sure there are enough charming little boys and girls and talented teens to please an audience some of whom actually speak the language!
), funding of education , the state of the Welsh nation and many other factors that will impact the language by 2050 are uncertain at this stage.
