Cornish language communities online?

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#35

Well, actually I´ve been out of the loop for a bit. It´s a small world but once you step outside it becomes invisible almost. My experiences of Y-an-W conversation groups, as a regular member are as follows:

When I lived in the far West I attended one in Penzance/Pennsans. There were really only three of us most of the time, and it got so that we rang each other up to check who was coming, and if we couldn´t all make it, it was simply cancelled. And yet there was a regular weekly night class in PZ, with a dozen or more attendees.

In East Cornwall, there used to be a regular and well attended Y-an-W at pub near Liskeard/Lyskerris station. It even had a Cornish name at the time, Tavern an Karow. But then it all somehow fell apart. Several key people some who lived within walking distance of the pub moved away, the pub changed hands and is now ¨The Old Stag¨, so maybe the management weren´t too happy with the idea. Anyway afaik it all petered out. Nothing is listed on the Events Calendar someone linked to above.

Felly, dyna fy chwedl i / Ottena ow hwedhel vy.

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#36

Ah, the best way I found if doing it was to simply go along to the pub on a certain day and not worry about who was coming. Sometimes five, sometimes one other, occasionally fifteen, very occasionally none. The point was, though, that even if no one turned up it wasn’t a problem if the one running it likes the pub!

I found myself that even if just one person turned up the night was worthwhile. Two people is enough for a conversation, to have a worthwhile night. It’s great when there are loads of people, but it doesn’t necessarily help the individuals who turn up any more.

I never worried about the numbers, and certainly never worried about class members not turning up- each to their own, people will find their own way of using a language if they want to, these things are just an option. As soon as you start talking about numbers being a “success” or “failure”, of asking why people don’t come along to it as they “should”, then you turn a pleasant, relaxed social night out into an unpleasant chore- for everybody, the ones coming and the ones running it. And only a small minority of people like that sort of thing. (And there are some who do! And good luck to them. But occasions run like that aren’t ones I would want to attend.)

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#37

Again I agree with most of that, but I´d say the ideal situation for beginners with just ´the basics´ is a group of maybe 6-8 of which about half are pretty fluent. That way most of the vocabulary you need for the subject under discussion will already be flying around and you can, as it were, ¨snatch the words out of the air¨. Especially useful at the stage where you recognise many more words than you can actively remember.

Pubs are OK, and somehow became the standard venue in Kernow, but it would be nice to meet in other places, e.g. a suitable café or whatever. Or a child-friendly location for people to bring their kids along, I´m sure there are many possibilities, but we somehow got fixated on pubs (admittedly a little alcohol can make people less nervous and more inclined to babble … in any language) :slight_smile:

Remember also that ´natural´ situations for speaking Cornish are practically non-existent apart from classes and Y-an-W´s, unless you happen to have a neighbour or workmate who´s learning the lingo, or you´re at one of the big annual events like the Gorsedh, the language w/e and one or two others. You can´t chat up the natives, not without using a medium anyway! Awoz aga boz marow pubhuni!

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#38

I don’t know what the ideal situation for beginners is, but I do know that one to one chats with beginners in such situations seemed to help!
I’m not sure anyone at any level of learning is going to get the ideal situation. :blush:

Some people like evenings in pubs. Some people like coffee mornings in cafes. Some people like both. I have been to both but would only have an interest in running the former. But any venue is going to attract some people and put off others. That is inevitable.

The more the better, certainly. That’s how it works. But even if encouraging more and different people to have such things in more and different venues doesn’t work, that does not mean that the ones that are going are somehow a failure. :blush:

Thanks for your story and views!

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#39

I have to admit I was just about to ask this myself (especially after having my own optimistic comments so roundly slated earlier)…

I’m relatively new to the Cornish language scene, but can only say that the negativity and in-fighting I’d heard about (and seen on certain websites) is something I have not encountered at all among Cornish speakers in person — and I’ve met and spent time with quite a number of them in the past year and a half. I’m sure there are still those who are stuck on arguing over whose version of the language is best, but most serious proponents I’ve met (and there really are more than a handful :slight_smile: ) seem to be largely over that by now and are more concerned about welcoming anyone who loves the language and wants to learn and use it.

I’m familiar with two of the Yeth an Werin groups that are running at present. The one in St Austell meets every week on Monday mornings at a nice modern bistro that has a quiet little side room where the group can all meet around one big table with less background noise. There are two language bards who organise the group and several regulars who come most weeks, with more occasional visitors as well. Most of the regulars are doing Cornish classes and working towards exams.

The other Yeth an Werin I’ve visited is once a month on a Monday evening at a pub in the very quiet village of Porkellis. It was the sort of place where background noise would have been a problem if the pub was full, but being a Monday night, it was nowhere near. At least four of that group’s regular members are language bards, very fluent speakers and heavily involved in the Cornish language revival. They were really happy to include me directly in their conversation, which was almost entirely in Kernewek, and to explain anything I couldn’t understand, either in simpler terms or in English where necessary (but I soon found I was able to follow most of what they were saying anyway!). I’m sure they would be just as welcoming to anyone else, of any background or proficiency level, who cared enough about Kernewek to come along and join in.

That particular village, Porkellis (the nearest bigger town is Helston), is actually now the focus of a project to promote the use of the Cornish language in daily life, especially at the local school. The pub where the Yeth an Werin meets also promotes itself as a place where you can order your drinks in Cornish, and yes, they have taken the trouble to teach all their bar staff! :smile: All small beginnings, and it’s still true there is no settled community anywhere where all or most people speak Cornish regularly. But it’s from encounters with people like these that I would say (as do they) that Kernewek is a living language and it is growing and evolving, however gradually. It still needs a lot of help to do so, but there are plenty of people doing just that! :wink:

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#40

I should mention — another very successful and lively Cornish language event I’ve been to was this year’s Pennseythun Gernewek (Cornish Language Weekend), which is held every year in April (usually in Newquay) and has been going for a long time. There were over 100 people there of all different levels, from young children to fluent speakers, and it was just a fantastic time. There’s a thread about it here: Cornish Language Weekend

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#41

Sorry, I wasn´t trying to do down the language movement. However it´s important not to swallow all your own propaganda, as it were. When you´re inside the bubble that´s all too easy, and there´s a lot of wishful thinking in some quarters. This then leads to exaggerated claims getting passed around the Celtic networks. There have been some real achievements, hard won. But progress is slow and fragile.

On a personal note, I became increasingly unhappy as the County Council began to undermine the ´authority´ of the Kesva (Language Board) which had been the de facto regulating body for the language for decades, elected by Cornish speakers and learners. There seemed to me at least, to be an unwritten policy to first take over and then to stifle the movement. Call me paranoid if you will :slight_smile:

Also at about the same time, the annual Language Weekend (which had slowly grown to almost a full week for those with the time to spare) was changed from a cheap-n-cheerful affair designed to draw in the maximum number of people, to something more ´exclusive´ and ´up-market´, which I thought was a very bad move, and TBH not really my hanav a de.

Anyway, I took less interest in current matters and turned to analysing the surviving texts, the structure of the verse and so on. Academic and a bit technical, but necessary to get the feel of the language, IMO at least.

Ytho, ottavy! Ow thybyansow ow honan yns yn hwir, mez ny allav vy marnaz y leverel kepar dell welis vy :wink:

#42

Gosh, I’m sorry if you’ve had so many negative experiences with the Cornish language movement in the past that anyone who happens to say anything positive or upbeat about it must be “swallowing all [their] own propaganda”. :frowning: Really, I appreciate what you’re saying, but that is rather how it comes across.

As I said, I’ve only been involved with the revival for about 18 months (if that) and I’m only speaking from my own experiences, as indeed you are from yours. I don’t have any sides to take or axes to grind and I don’t want to go anywhere near personal politics. I’m just grateful for anyone who wants to support the language revival in whatever way they can, whether it’s research, teaching, writing, representation at government level, or simply turning up at a Yeth an Werin every now and again. Like I said in the other thread, when one is part of a small community, it’s important to stick together — even when we don’t always agree on everything. :wink:

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#43

Look, sorry. I didn´t come here (SSiW ) to talk about Cornish, simply to add a piece of information on another thread, and then got drawn into various interesting discussions here. I should probably have stayed clear.

I had plenty of good experiences with the Cornish crowd, just as you have, and I hope continue to have. The trouble arose when the carrot of official funding was dangled in front of the movement.

It´s a long story but as I understand it, as part of the GFA they had to give official status to ¨Ulster Scots¨, a somewhat dubious linguistic creation, as parity for Irish. But having accepted US there was no way they could not accept Cornish, which is a ¨real language¨ with an extant literature (ancient and modern) and so on. This was all part of some international treaty which the UK government had signed up to.

Not quite knowing how to implement this new duty, the responsibility was passed down to the County Council who didn´t have much idea either. They were supposed to promote the language in public signage, teach it ´officially´ in schools etc. As a way of stalling they insisted that everything had first to be standardised. This of course opened a number of old wounds that had largely healed. There had been enough wiggle room for different sub-groups (most of them very small in truth) to use their own varients of Cornish, and mostly not fight over their differences.

But once money (very little actually materialised) and ´official status´ were thrown into the balance, well ferrets in a sack hardly covers it. To be fair most of the vitriol was to be seen on-line, on the whole people were civil in face-to-face contact. Nevertheless seeing perfectly nice and sincere folk being abused on-line day after day, eventually gets to you. Trying to have an informed, sometimes fairly technical, discussion in such an atmosphere becomes impossible.

The overall outcome was simply to destabilise the movement, which I suspect may have been the Council´s intention, ¨We didn´t ask for this, just make it all go away!¨ So they fell back on the old trick of Divide and Rule. Where there are factions, set them against one another. Which of course only sharpens the ideological differences. In the meantime the Council can largely sit on its hands.

Eventually you just burn out and give up. I still speak Cornish to the cat … hi a wra konvedhez pub ger-oll :slight_smile:

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#44

Not a community, but a beginners´ page I did a while back that might be useful :

http://www.howlsedhes.co.uk/dallether/dlan0.shtml

Feedback and comments welcome. But be warned, this won´t necessarily be compatible with your SSiK course.

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#45

I thought I’d throw my two penny worth in but most have been said already by Courtney, true there are no areas where large groups of Cornish speakers meet/talk but I find there’s plenty going on, you just have to make the active effort to search for things, I live in east Cornwall I attend a large class in callington, that is where I speak most of my Cornish but I’m active on social media and I would say that’s the best bet for others to engage with other speakers, “I pledge to become more fluent in Cornish” on Facebook is a really good group with people posting daily, also try the kowethas an yeth kernewek.
I’m on Twitter and Instagram I searched for people using the #kernewek and started following and engaging with them.
It’s not easy but I try to engage in social media in kernewek at least daily :grinning:

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#46

I’m not on Facebook myself, but Kowethas an Yeth Kernewek is definitely another good group for keeping in touch re events, Yeth an Werin details, and so on. They also have a monthly all-Cornish magazine for members, An Gannas, which is good for stretching one’s reading abilities (and giving an gerlyver a workout). I recently received the September issue and can see a familiar name under “sewen gans bri” (pass with honour) in this year’s first grade Kernewek exam… keslowena Shaun :smile:

It’s true, there really is a lot more going on with Cornish speakers and learners than most people would realise… as Shaun says, you just have to take the time to look. :slight_smile:

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#47

Meur ras dhis, Courtnay pur lowen ov vy :grinning:

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#48

Sadly the Westminster government’s decision to withdraw funding led to the closing down of MAGA the language office. Whatever people may think about the work the office one of its great successes was introduction of ‘Tregedna rules’ events. These came about from residential week ends at Tregedna where the rules were 1) ‘Cornish only’ and 2) nothing in writing. Formal sessions were held by people (some traditional teachers being challenged by not being allowed to use written material) but it was all the organising, socialising and generally living 21/2 days entirely through the medium of Cornish that had the biggest impact.

Attendees at the residentials quickly became confident speakers and, in some cases, went on to become very clued up teachers. Again eschewing reading and writing seemed to produce the best results in terms of acquisition and confidence to use Kernewek in public. Pol and I would like to run these sessions again but will need a fair few numbers to make them viable.

With all this in mind maybe this forum would be a good place for people to register an interest in attending?

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#49

My a garsa gul henna, Mike ha Pol! :grinning: I would need to know the dates well in advance, though, as it would mean organising a few days’ leave from work and a trip to Cornwall (I live just east of Greater London). If it’s ever possible, though, count me in. :star2:

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#50

Meur dhe les, heb mar. So what exactly was the idea behind the ´no writing´ rule? That´s a new one to me, so I´m interested to know how it worked. From what I remember of the old Language W/Es most of the informal goings on were obviously oral, as were a lot of the organised events. There are some types of classes etc. though that would be difficult to hold, if not impossible, without some written materials. Anyway, an interesting experiment, is there anything written up that teachers etc. could refer to? Oll a´n gwella :slight_smile:

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#51

I thought these were still going? There was certainly one last year because I remember seeing the Facebook posts. Also wanted to say at the Cornish language weekend on the Friday they have a tregedna day for those at the right level. Any language teacher will tell you immersion is the best method, obviously funding comes into it but it would be good if there were a couple of tregedna weekends a year

#52

Yes, there was one this year in April, combined with a “cramming day” (“dydh stoffya”) for those preparing for exams. As I’m still a relatively new learner and haven’t been taking formal classes or preparing for exams, I didn’t consider attending the Dydh Tregedna on the Friday, only to the rest of the weekend. I guess I assumed it was only for much more advanced speakers. Now I’m wondering, would beginners have been welcome at that day as well? It was a bit baffling to a newcomer who didn’t know what “Tregedna” meant to established Kowethas members — I would have liked more information about what the day involved and who it was aimed at. I would definitely consider attending it next year if beginners are also encouraged to attend and are catered for!

#53

Dydh da Courtney.

Consider yoursef counted in! I’ll keep a note of anyone who expresses an interest and put a post up here later in the year about what we might be able to do.

OaG

Mike

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#54

Dydh da shaunrennie_plume

the last Tregedna Weekend run by MAGA was not organised by Pol and I and by all accounts was not run on ‘Tregedna rules’ As far as we know the only person in Cornwall Council working on the language is not planning to run the event again. In any case if they did we would still like to run an event as it was very popular with attendees. Our hope for 2017 we be to run the week end as in previous years ie following the ‘no reading writing’ rule because the evidence for its effectiveness was overwhelming.

With a bit of careful planning we hope to attract ‘semi-speakers’ this time

OaG

Mike

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