Firstly, just know that you are in excellent company here on the Forum–no question is ever silly or too small, but a clear demonstration that you are making a genuine, heroic effort–so well done!!! Please keep going and not let another person’s rudeness at night school put you off, but rather enjoy the company of all those well-wishers and new friends who have already responded here. This is where you will always find plenty of TLC!
I am no grammarian, nor linguist, but insatiably curious so can understand your wanting some explanations. For what it is worth, besides this Forum, my first ‘go to’ resource is the ‘Modern Welsh Dictionary’ which has sidebar explanations or examples that clarify many points simply and succinctly. I also have Kindle editions of Gareth King’s ‘Basic Welsh’ and ‘Modern Welsh’, plus Tony Ellis’ Y Cyfeiriadur’, but when there are so many fantastic folk on this Forum ready, willing and able to answer any questions, this is the place to not only get all the answers, but also encouragement at the same time.
So why the books? Sometimes one thing leads to another, and I like to cross-reference–out of sheer curiosity. This learning Welsh is like a glorious treasure hunt to me. But with Slack (which others are walking me through because that’s my ‘frontier of learning’ right now), I am sure a conversation could take similar tangents to satisfy that curiosity, with a lot of laughs along the way.
As for the night school class–if you feel up to a one-on-one with the teacher to explain how horrible it feels to you, then do it, because that may be a huge learning experience for that person and one that may benefit others in the long-term. But unless you receive an apology and assurance that it will change, why not ask for your money back and invest it right here, maybe on one of the 6-month or 2-year structured courses, (or maybe in a couple of books)?
Celebrate your every success with SSiW (I do regularly with lattes or glasses of wine every time something ‘clicks’)–and let us celebrate it with you.
Hi Frances, you’re certainly not a dunce. You’ve shown more courage than I have by trying a classroom session. Welsh isn’t an easy language, and like you I also found I was getting tripped up doing SSIW because I didn’t understand the grammar of Cymraeg. I’m a slow learner and struggled to get to Level 2, before I ground to a halt 2/3rds of the way through. My problem was trying to match the Welsh words to the English. In other words if the English sentence had 6 words in it - then I was trying to look for 6 Welsh words to translate - didn’t work because the Welsh tends to be truncated with what I call “back-to-front” sentences. Now I’ve realised my mistake, I’m hoping to try again. SSIW has a great community and everyone very supportive.
I joined an evening class part way through Level 1.I have found the grammar explanations helpful and enjoy the class very much but my tutor is lovely. Sounds to me like you should try a different tutor. I did find initially that in some ways I was behind but in others I’m ahead, and over the weeks I feel I have mostly caught up so now it’s fine.
I suspect some tutors feel threatened by internet class and behave accordingly.
I would definitely persevere and try and find a better tutor.
Without having time today to read all your replies, I will offer my take on classes.
I go to one though I frequently ask myself why. My problem is that the class is waaay toooo sloooow for me. There are people in it who have been going for years but seem to have learned nothing. The teacher does her best to encourage them, but this involves group work, where we are supposed to ‘discuss and help each other’. In practice this means that the brighter students are doing all the work for the less able, effectively therefore only one type of student is actually being helped. I find this annoying.
The thing is with classes is that they will always be mixed ability, and if you want any differentiation you have to do it yourself. Which is where SSIW is invaluable. And to be fair, some teachers are just crap and that’s a fact.
The way I have come to terms with it is like this: classes are where I practice speaking Welsh. End of. That is the limit of their usefulness. I teach myself. Classes are only a part of my learning. They will always be only partly helpful. I have learned to lower my expectations, sadly.
I hope Mari doesn’t mind me answering on her behalf, but since I’m here…!
Slack is an online application that allows people to chat with audio and video (a bit like skype) and we have a group on there called Welsh Speaking Practice with 400+ members from all over the world and of all abilities. There is more about it here : Finding practice partners - a new resource - please share
I have never been to a Welsh class (having never lived in Wales), but I’ve been to plenty of language classes over the years in other languages, and the pattern you describe seems common to them all.
There seem to be some people who go to them who seem like very nice people and who seem to want to learn the language (whatever it is), but you rather get the impression that they do little or nothing outside of the class, and that’s simply not how language-learning works (well, unless you are doing some kind of intensive class-based learning, where you are going to classes all day every day (like you might do in the diplomatic service or spy school ). Intensive classes of that nature are not the experience of most of us, so if you attend a weekly class (of say 1 or 2 hours), then of course you have to supplement that with other activities, ideally something every day. Nothing new for SSiW learners, of course, but maybe new for people who think that a weekly class of one or two hours is going to teach them the language.
My own theory is that some people go along for social reasons, it’s to get them out of the house and make friends or something. They don’t appear discouraged by their ineptitude and, like you say, appear to do bugger all outside of the lessons.
As you can see—while I was still asleep, Siaron was hot on the trail to answer you. This is the joy of this great world-wide Forum. I am still in bed enjoying my first cuppa’ of the day
And of course these classes always seem to run at the pace of the slowest learners, which is frustrating for those who are putting the work in outside of class to build their comprehension.
I felt the opposite in the class I went to, that I was being left behind though! I know what you mean, if people are just coming for the social kick and not doing the homework, that is frustrating for everyone else, but there are those who are trying their best and still struggling too I suppose. I suppose that I’ve felt myself, in education in general that I’ve participated in in recent years, that those who just don’t “get it” are actually ignored by the tutors who really seem lazy and want to do as little as possible. That’s been my experience in many classes I’ve been to. Now, I as a teacher myself am always keen to make sure that everyone is feeling ok with the material, and not leave it entirely to others in the class to update them which is bad teaching, though you only have so much time, and there’s nothing wrong with a little bit of teamwork in the class. It’s also very annoying for teachers when people don’t do the homework, because then your lesson doesn’t work. Of course, there are other good teachers out there, and good for them, unfortunately I think standards in higher education have dropped though, leaving everyone in the class frustrated one way or another! I’m sure there are fantastic Welsh teachers and classes to be had, sadly this was my first experience and wasn’t a good one.
Couldn’t agree more, Frances. The ones who are really not with it never get corrected by a certain type of tutor. This tutor just lets them get on with it and shows no interest in ensuring they have actually understood the work. The tutor just wants to get THEMSELVES through the course. I hate it when I’m made to do group work with this type of student. It is so frustrating. They just sit there umming and ahhing waiting for me to supply them with the answers.
Exactly the description of the tutor in Dysgu byw by Sarah Reynolds,“A light-hearted novel by a new author about a group of people learning Welsh” - it’s a relatively easy read and quite funny (providing, of course, the wounds from a real evening class are not too fresh )
Dysgu byw
Hmmm maybe I’ll read that when I’ve stopped being so pissed off with the actual experience. Actually, expressing my feelings here is helping me realise I’m wasting what little is left of my life going somewhere that gives me a sinking feeling every time I walk through the door.
). Intensive classes of that nature are not the experience of most of us, so if you attend a weekly class (of say 1 or 2 hours), then of course you have to supplement that with other activities, ideally something every day. Nothing new for SSiW learners, of course, but maybe new for people who think that a weekly class of one or two hours is going to teach them the language.
)