That’s not a précis! It’s an attempt at a conversation - if you say/if one says.
1 Like
Fair enough! French was never a strong point of mine 
…
1 Like
I think this discussion is very worthwhile. In most fields of endeavour efficiencies of 30% bring about radical changes in the delivery of services. My interest is one as an economist (albeit minor one) and as a consumer of language education.
My hypothesis is that the SSi method (listen a bit then speak) is so efficient that it ought to shake up the industry. I would suggest that the efficiencies, if measured over a sizeable group, would turn out to be significantly greater than 30%. I think this would be the case whether the objective is speaking or reading or writing or a combination of the three.
It would be worthwhile for someone to do an independent study because if proven true then there is amassive mis-allocation of resources in the language-learning sphere.
1 Like
Whoops - did I just state the obvious,
Justin
Come to think of it, books can be ordered from one library to another. I wonder how far would that carry, as it were? I’m sure a librarian on this site answered that question, but I’ve forgotten the answer.
Presumably audio CDs could be sent to another library in the same way? I don’t know.
Ah, here we are-
"Almost all 22 library services in Wales pool resources into one joint ebooks site. It needs much more improvement and a wider range which I’m pushing for but is worth checking out. Its worth also remembering that reservations are free in welsh libraries as long as the book you want can be sourced in wales which is usually the case. So just ask your local library for the book you want and within days youll have it, for free 
Of course, with ebooks, geographical boundaries are irrelevant so once you have joined you could access the ebooks site from anywhere"
1 Like
My hypothesis is that reading may be a disadvantage if the goal is efficiency - meaning making the least effort at becoming competent as a speaker, reader or writer. The hypothesis goes like this - listen and speak iterations are the most rapid way of creating a foundation for later acceleration as a proficient speaker or for a transition to reading and writing.
I also do think that in the early stages reading may interfere a little with the beauty of the listen and speak iterations - which I hypothesize might be best without any interference from other types of learning. Also, I hypothesize that reading should not be at the expense of time spent on listen and speak iterations. But this doesn’t have to be the be-all and end-all of the hypothesis. Let’s all read if we enjoy doing it - which most of us do. And if there is some disadvantage in doing it it may be outweighed by the motivational aspects of doing something we enjoy.
My own very simplistic model for this theory is let the listen and speak iterations mature with a foundation of more than 500 or so words delivered in patterns. After that I would agree that reading would help in building vocabulary certainlybeyond 1000 words and given the current state is probably indispensable for acquiring a rich vocabulary.
However, once SSI delivers dialogues with patterns and vocabulary toward the 2000 word range and beyond that toward the 4000 word range then the game changes again - and I would hypothesize that the listen and speak iterations will be a powerfully efficient way of learning a language - to a relatively sophisticated level. So GOGOGO SSi4k
Just to end by saying that reading is one of the greatest pleasures in life - so for pleasure, for culture and for some role in the mix, certainly more and more once the foundations are built I remain a big fan.
Justin
1 Like
I disagree with this. As I say, I haven’t noticed the fact that in Wales* people necessarily start reading along with or before speaking as interfering with any form of learning Welsh, including SSiW. In fact, it seems- from what I have seen- to be an advantage in familiarity with the language.
My views are only based on the people from Wales and outside Wales I have seen achieve various levels of fluency, so it’s by no means a scientific analysis - so I think we are always going to disagree on this one- (which is a good thing! 
)
*- edit- people in Wales who have decided to learn Welsh as a second language later in life, that is!
2 Likes
Thanks @owainlurch. (re: libraries / ebooks). I think I can remember that being posted. I think that someone also commented that there weren’t all that many Welsh books among the available ebooks. Of course that might have changed.
Well, there are a reasonable number of Welsh ebooks available to buy online, and I’m reasonably happy to pay for books. However, the big advantage of access to a library (physical or electronic) is that one can browse and see what one likes without payment. If I like a book I’m inclined to buy it. But buying them without knowing how difficult they will be or if I will like them can be a bit frustrating, as well as potentially a waste of money.
I’m just going to have to make that trip to Cardiff I think …
Unfortunately, there are still no graded readers available online, and real books are a bit tough for A1-A2 learners. I hope Amazon or Y Lolfa makes them available as ebooks eventually, because shipping costs a fortune…
1 Like
Well, the Amazon kindle store has a small number of ebooks in Welsh (532 to be exact).
Thank you, it’s true, and I’ve bought some ebooks there, but I was referring to the graded readers, suitable for beginners (something like E-ffrindiau), I haven’t found them in the ebook form.
I saw Tacsi Hunllef there- it’s a story Sydyn. I don’t know what a graded reader is, but books from the stori sydyn series seems to be reccomended for learners in the courses I have been on.
1 Like
A graded reader is a book made shorter and easier for learners to read, and sometimes it has exercises to check comprehension and to practice vocabulary. Thank you, I will check it out.
1 Like
It definitely doesn’t have excercises or vocabulary in it. Just the story, as it were.
Thank you very much, bought it:) I heard about the Stori sydyn series, but for some reason I couldn’t find the ebook version.
1 Like
To @aran and @owainlurch and @JustinandEirwen I got a bit bogged down in your lengthy discussion about speaking and reading. Mention of Latin caused me to exclaim, “But…but!” because at one school (Convent) Latin was pronounced as in church and certainly read aloud, therefore spoken. In the next school, we all were given Latin names and talked in Latin as much as possible, pronouncing it the ‘correct’ Latin way. I wasn’t brilliant at either, but I hated the ‘weni, weeni, weeki’ method and passed O-Level by the scrapings of the skin of my teeth!
However, my real point is 'How can you read if you can’t speak?" Clearly, I don’t read aloud, but I need to know how it sounds to think it, and I need to think it to read it or write it!!!
I may only converse with myself in my head, but I’m still talking!!!
3 Likes
So did I!
I agree with you! I mean, you could, theoretically, I suppose, learn the meanings of say, Chinese writing and how the script was used without having any idea of how it was pronounced. (I believe that writing system covers meanings rather than sounds anyway, so it can cover different languages? No idea, really. ) Plenty of archaeologists (and others:blush:) did and do this to some extent with ancient languages! But however you did, you would never get the subtleties of meaning and -well, just know the written language as well as someone who spoke it.
I know what you mean! I always felt a little uncomfortable with that myself! ( we had to change from “v” pronunciation to “w” as our teacher changed!)
But, if you look at the Latin words which entered into Welsh. It does seem that when Latin was spoken in Wales, they pronounced te “v” as “w”
That’s the reason why I myself support the idea of starting to read since the very beginning. But the problem is often that people are lazy so they wouldn’t check how the word is really pronounced and they would just make up the approximate pronunciation in their heads, which, in addition to the heavy accent that beginners usually have, creates great confusion! This can be solved by using, at a beginner level, only texts that have a recording. Then, when they’re more familiar with the spelling system, they can pass on to simply reading for pleasure.
Anyway, I think that reading enlarges one’s vocabulary so wonderfully that it outweighs any harm that can come from mispronouncing a few words.
1 Like