Ah, here we are-
"Almost all 22 library services in Wales pool resources into one joint ebooks site. It needs much more improvement and a wider range which I’m pushing for but is worth checking out. Its worth also remembering that reservations are free in welsh libraries as long as the book you want can be sourced in wales which is usually the case. So just ask your local library for the book you want and within days youll have it, for free
Of course, with ebooks, geographical boundaries are irrelevant so once you have joined you could access the ebooks site from anywhere"
My hypothesis is that reading may be a disadvantage if the goal is efficiency - meaning making the least effort at becoming competent as a speaker, reader or writer. The hypothesis goes like this - listen and speak iterations are the most rapid way of creating a foundation for later acceleration as a proficient speaker or for a transition to reading and writing.
I also do think that in the early stages reading may interfere a little with the beauty of the listen and speak iterations - which I hypothesize might be best without any interference from other types of learning. Also, I hypothesize that reading should not be at the expense of time spent on listen and speak iterations. But this doesn’t have to be the be-all and end-all of the hypothesis. Let’s all read if we enjoy doing it - which most of us do. And if there is some disadvantage in doing it it may be outweighed by the motivational aspects of doing something we enjoy.
My own very simplistic model for this theory is let the listen and speak iterations mature with a foundation of more than 500 or so words delivered in patterns. After that I would agree that reading would help in building vocabulary certainlybeyond 1000 words and given the current state is probably indispensable for acquiring a rich vocabulary.
However, once SSI delivers dialogues with patterns and vocabulary toward the 2000 word range and beyond that toward the 4000 word range then the game changes again - and I would hypothesize that the listen and speak iterations will be a powerfully efficient way of learning a language - to a relatively sophisticated level. So GOGOGO SSi4k
Just to end by saying that reading is one of the greatest pleasures in life - so for pleasure, for culture and for some role in the mix, certainly more and more once the foundations are built I remain a big fan.
I disagree with this. As I say, I haven’t noticed the fact that in Wales* people necessarily start reading along with or before speaking as interfering with any form of learning Welsh, including SSiW. In fact, it seems- from what I have seen- to be an advantage in familiarity with the language.
My views are only based on the people from Wales and outside Wales I have seen achieve various levels of fluency, so it’s by no means a scientific analysis - so I think we are always going to disagree on this one- (which is a good thing! )
*- edit- people in Wales who have decided to learn Welsh as a second language later in life, that is!
Thanks @owainlurch. (re: libraries / ebooks). I think I can remember that being posted. I think that someone also commented that there weren’t all that many Welsh books among the available ebooks. Of course that might have changed.
Well, there are a reasonable number of Welsh ebooks available to buy online, and I’m reasonably happy to pay for books. However, the big advantage of access to a library (physical or electronic) is that one can browse and see what one likes without payment. If I like a book I’m inclined to buy it. But buying them without knowing how difficult they will be or if I will like them can be a bit frustrating, as well as potentially a waste of money.
I’m just going to have to make that trip to Cardiff I think …
Unfortunately, there are still no graded readers available online, and real books are a bit tough for A1-A2 learners. I hope Amazon or Y Lolfa makes them available as ebooks eventually, because shipping costs a fortune…
Thank you, it’s true, and I’ve bought some ebooks there, but I was referring to the graded readers, suitable for beginners (something like E-ffrindiau), I haven’t found them in the ebook form.
I saw Tacsi Hunllef there- it’s a story Sydyn. I don’t know what a graded reader is, but books from the stori sydyn series seems to be reccomended for learners in the courses I have been on.
A graded reader is a book made shorter and easier for learners to read, and sometimes it has exercises to check comprehension and to practice vocabulary. Thank you, I will check it out.
To @aran and @owainlurch and @JustinandEirwen I got a bit bogged down in your lengthy discussion about speaking and reading. Mention of Latin caused me to exclaim, “But…but!” because at one school (Convent) Latin was pronounced as in church and certainly read aloud, therefore spoken. In the next school, we all were given Latin names and talked in Latin as much as possible, pronouncing it the ‘correct’ Latin way. I wasn’t brilliant at either, but I hated the ‘weni, weeni, weeki’ method and passed O-Level by the scrapings of the skin of my teeth!
However, my real point is 'How can you read if you can’t speak?" Clearly, I don’t read aloud, but I need to know how it sounds to think it, and I need to think it to read it or write it!!!
I may only converse with myself in my head, but I’m still talking!!!
I agree with you! I mean, you could, theoretically, I suppose, learn the meanings of say, Chinese writing and how the script was used without having any idea of how it was pronounced. (I believe that writing system covers meanings rather than sounds anyway, so it can cover different languages? No idea, really. ) Plenty of archaeologists (and others:blush:) did and do this to some extent with ancient languages! But however you did, you would never get the subtleties of meaning and -well, just know the written language as well as someone who spoke it.
I know what you mean! I always felt a little uncomfortable with that myself! ( we had to change from “v” pronunciation to “w” as our teacher changed!)
But, if you look at the Latin words which entered into Welsh. It does seem that when Latin was spoken in Wales, they pronounced te “v” as “w”
That’s the reason why I myself support the idea of starting to read since the very beginning. But the problem is often that people are lazy so they wouldn’t check how the word is really pronounced and they would just make up the approximate pronunciation in their heads, which, in addition to the heavy accent that beginners usually have, creates great confusion! This can be solved by using, at a beginner level, only texts that have a recording. Then, when they’re more familiar with the spelling system, they can pass on to simply reading for pleasure.
Anyway, I think that reading enlarges one’s vocabulary so wonderfully that it outweighs any harm that can come from mispronouncing a few words.
I’m sceptical of this ‘subtleties of meaning’ line…
I think that subtlety of meaning comes from exposure to words in multiple contexts - and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it could be shown that wider exposure is possible more quickly by reading than by conversational exchange (where we tend to use a smaller subset of the language).
I’m finding this role reversal we’re having on ‘read or not’ quite entertaining…
I never thought we were that far apart on the wider picture of reading!
Oh meaning comes through in spoken language so much, through the context of facial and body expression, though the quick knee jerk reactions to what people say or think, could never completely be picked up through written language, and could even picked up much quicker through conversation.
Written language to me is essentially a way of imperfectly recording the spoken language- certainly in writing socially, or fiction, which is what I am most interested in. I certainly found it’s when you use words in speech rather than in writing you get a real feel for them, a real feel for how they are and should be used in the language (only either of two for me, but applies to both!) - that is, how they are and should be used in writing, the levels of meaning and feel of the word, the images they conjure up in your mind are deeper and fuller the more they are part of your language.
But this is really just a rather wordy way of saying what I’ve already said- I don’t think either of us is going to change our slight differences of opinion on this any time soon!
Thinking about it, (a dangerous thing to do, I usually find), if interest in reading were to be confined to technical matters, or some scientific writings- where the language is very “black and white”- or should be! - then my view is what you say could be quite possible. (Could:wink:, as you yourself say )
Perhaps it is a natural progression. We build a foundation first. After that comes,richer patterns, richer vocabulary, nuance and subtlety.
In our native language most of us create this foundation through listening and speaking. Not all of us are surrounded by Plato and Aristotle in the flesh so we develop quite a lot of the nuance and sophistication by reading - and then we get play it out in conversation with whomever will listen and debate with us.
I have no professional background as an educator but my instinct is that for efficient learning of a second language listen/speak would be very heavy in the mix at the beginning and that reading would play a more important role later on.
I have no professional background as an educator but my instinct is that for efficient learning of a second language listen/speak would be very heavy in the mix at the beginning and that reading would play a more important role later on.
)
) Plenty of archaeologists (and others:blush:) did and do this to some extent with ancient languages! But however you did, you would never get the subtleties of meaning and -well, just know the written language as well as someone who spoke it.