Looks like a misunderstanding to me

Well, I agree but I would be disappointed if this didn’t tempt Owainlurch back into the jousting :smiling_imp:

Justin

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What on earth do you mean by that? Do you find my opinions something funny, something to be provoked and dismissed?

Yes, despite your attempt to predict and dismiss my opinions before I express them, I agree with Y Draig las when he says

In fact, I couldn’t agree more.

You (Justin and Eirwen) may think that any disagreement with Aran is worth regarding in a basically dismissive manner, but then such an attitude- that Aran is perfect regarding language matters and can do no wrong- is unhelpful to SSiW (everything is strengthened through genuine, constructive criticism) and, far more importantly, unhelpful to the Welsh language.

I just enjoy the debate and think the exchanges lead to a better understanding. Sometimes, I learn somewhat more when people disagree with me. So that’s healthy. :relaxed:

Justin

An uncritical adoration of a person or an idea is never healthy.
In fact, any adoration of an idea is never healthy.

(As you do not respond to most of my post, I will assume that that little dig of yours above was what I assumed it to be.)

On the subject that was raised:

" For those of us outside of Wales, I think it is really important to avoid the written language in the beginning. We need to be solid on the speaking, on the sounds and cadence of the language, on the accent, before we start looking at reading/writing. Maybe if I were learning a language with a totally different alphabet, it might not be as important, but Welsh has letters that look like English letters that don’t sound at all like their English equivalent. And the vowel sounds are very different. I remember hearing words like “mewn” and thinking how different they sounded, and that I’d never figure out how to say them properly. But it is getting easier with time and experience"

I think this is an excellent point and I was looking forward to your response to it.

Justin

I’m not Owain:) But in fact I would like to say something on the subject. As a Russian, I had almost not trouble at all with the Welsh sounds. I started to learn using some online materials and the “Teach yourself” book and I first listened to everything and then read it, learning the spelling rules as I progressed. However, the Rydw i, Rwy i, Dw i and W i confused me so much that I started SSIW in the hope to understand which is the form which is actually used in speaking. It gave me so much more:) But I never really gave up on reading, though I carefully followed almost every other instruction that is in the course.
That is to say that even if you live outside Wales you can learn how to pronounce things correctly - by getting a lot of exposure to the audio and video materials and not attempting to make up the pronunciation of words but checking the right sounds in a dictionary or an forvo.

But I agree with Justin partially - each course has its inherent logic, and if a course has been made to teach speaking first and only later the visual forms of the words, then the creators have their own reasons for that and it’s probably supported by research that proves that this is the best method to adopt for this particular course.

P.S. However, I believe all this conversation is very much off-topic, and since it’s clearly a very important thread, maybe it should be moved elsewhere?

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Is that addressed at me? I notice you still do not address whether what you said was a dig or not.

However, I will do you the courtesy of addressing the point you ask me about.

On the above point, yes, I think there are probably are differences learning Welsh having had no exposure to it before. But to those of us brought up in Wales, I agree with the idea (which, yes, I have expressed before) that it is counter productive to actively avoid reading.

Unless SSiW is aimed only at people not brought up in Wales, then stressing avoiding reading for everyone is, in my view counterproductive.

But even if you were not brought up in Wales, Welsh has a phonetic alphabet, relatively easy to learn - if you are so inclined to do it and enjoy it. People who are inclined to read can do so from the earliest stages without it causing any problems. The trouble comes when one way of learning (eg reading, SSiW) is talked of as the best for everyone, or even as the only way to do it.

I assume “dig” has a pejorative aspect to it. So no it was not a dig. I did anticipate a response to this subject of “the benefits of reading and when”. The debate has shades so I don’t expect any one response to be decisive, just illuminating.

And you have given your perspective - thank you,

Justin

You’re welcome.

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Agreed.

@aran, @wondersheep, @Sionned … or whoever of admins and mods for this matter?

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Well I, for one, didn’t think you were!

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I don’t think that’s necessary! But I was going to keep out of it myself… :wink:

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Hey, people … no harm done … the debate goes on both ways what is actually not so bad either, I believe. It is better if we stay on topic but you already know that @aran never was angry or iritated when we slipped off it. He many times said this is what makes the topics more interesting (as much as I can remember). So, everything good I believe.

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@aran It might look like a misunderstanding to you, to such an extent that you label this thread in that way,and you might like his original comment, but in the context of Justin and Eirwen previously agreeing with the suggestion it is a waste of my time to take an opposing view on topics opposing proposals by yourself, combined with the idea expressed by him above that drawing me into a conversation is somehow a “mischievous” thing to do, I do not believe it was a misunderstanding.
But you’ve had your say on the matter, I’ve had mine, I’m quite happy to leave it there.

Ow, pull your neck in - Justin was just being light-hearted, and the fact that he engages in discussions with you shows that he thinks your viewpoint is interesting/worth discussing. This is the SSiW forum, after all, not the wider internet. If you think someone is trying to create trouble, don’t wade in - drop me a line and I’ll sort it out.

You know, it often appears that you’re very uncomfortable when people do happen to agree with me - but this implication that the forum runs on some kind of hagiography deal seems pretty unrecognisable to me. In fact, I’d say most people come into the forum with a lot of uncertainty about some of the recommendations I make, and I’ve been having (usually interesting) discussions based on people’s different ideas/feelings for a lot of the last seven years.

So all in all, I really don’t think you need to worry about ‘uncritical adoration’ (although in general terms I don’t see why adoring an idea should necessarily be any more unhealthy than adoring a person - strong feelings don’t have to be bad, and don’t have to imply inflexibility).

Ow, you seem really prickly the last couple of weeks. I’m sorry if you’re pissed off about something I’ve done, or something someone else has done, or life in general. But do please try and keep to the SSiW guidelines of friendly, polite interaction.

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?

No, I’m afraid not. I was simply responding to the above implication.

That’s fine by me.

Dunno about Welsh, but a Memrise course called SSi Forum vocab would come in handy…

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I hope it’s pretty evident from my posts that:

  1. I avoid “emotional” exchanges - though if someone feels offended by something I have said, I like John Cleese in a Fish Called Wanda do unreservedly apologise …

  2. I enjoy a good debate on either side of a topic and I am just as comfortable with opinions that are not aligned with mine. In fact, I learn more from the contrary ones.

  3. That your taste in Italian and French wines is probably close to perfection - but that the jury is out as to your state of perfection in all other matters and the best judge of that has to be Catrin not me.

  4. I enjoy good humour and I am open to be adored but have had no takers on the Forum so far. I have asked Eirwen for a certificate of perfection for myself but she is still rolling on the floor laughing, saying something that probably has to be censored though my Welsh is not yet good enough to interpret it, :innocent:

Justin

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Coming back to the topic of the new thread, I did avoid written Welsh as suggested. However, I was only up to Lesson 16 or so of Course 1 the first time we visited Wales after starting the course and I was faced with Welsh written all over the place, such as:
gwasanaethau on the main road in, pwll nofio on the front of a building, canol y dref on a roundabout, swyddfa bost on another building, dewiswch on a cash machine, melin hanesyddol on a side road, cigydd over a shop and lots more but none of them had the English alongside. I’m not complaining at all but pointing out that it’s just not possible to completely avoid seeing written Welsh.

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@Aran, Aran … I thought such expressions are forbidden here. :smiley:

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