Tatjana - progress reports

Welsh General / Questions
#61

This shouldn’t be such a problem I believe. I caught myself not remembering even those words I knew well . Something really has to be very wrong with my memory. :slight_smile: No guilt from your side. I can imagine it’s hard to drop down to some “beginners” level when you’re already in the hights of knowledge (speaking from my point of view from other aspect of knowledge like computering and stuff) so I just don’t have the right of demanding that.

As I’ve said previously: I’m not frustrated with the result of conversations I’m just highly disappointed upon myself that I could practically forget so many things even from lessons which I made recently.

Oh, and thank you both: to you and @owainlurch for taking such amount of time and speak with me. Whatever I feel it was a pleasure. Looking forward to speak with you both again.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

#62

Hello Tatjana!

First of all, as I understand it, you’ve learned several languages other than your native language. Ones which you had a lot of exposure to, and ones you didn’t have a lot of exposure to.

I’m in the process of learning my first one!

So you know better than me what level you think you should be at after the time you have put into it. I won’t try and tell you how well you should be able speak it after this time, you know far better than me!

I could say that as it was the first time you had tried to have a conversation with someone else, I was pleased to hear you speaking what Welsh you knew, and following what you followed of what I said (when we were actually speaking Welsh :wink: )

But as you are someone who has (quite literally!) forgotten more languages than I have learned, I know that could come across as patronising!

Learning a language where you just have access to Radio Cymru apart from SSiW is going to be difficult, I would have thought. (That’s a cheerful thing for me to say! :wink: )

Now you are starting to speak to people over Skype - people who have had much more access to welsh than you, people who also use other stuff [a lot of people on this site have and use copies of Welsh learning stuff, especially by Gareth King] - people who have had the opportunity to regularly practice Welsh and watch S4C, even people who have been talking to native Welsh speakers whilst learning Welsh ;-), then hopefully your ability and confidence will grow.

I know that probably doesn’t sound like a magic solution to what you feel, but I am really glad to hear that whatever your feelings about this, you seem to be still eager and happy to learn Welsh.

And moaning is a good way of letting people know about any problems you have, which is a good thing! :wink:

Hope to speak to you again soon!

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#63

Keep going Tatjana
If you take a few steps back, make sure you take a few plus 1 forward. I’m a big fan of your tenacity, it inspires me to keep trying myself. Last year I failed to make inroads into course three, by about the third lesson my head turned into a colander and all my words fell out out and I could no longer hear the difference between d, d and th, and my tenses got mixed up. I rested and tried again but the same thing happened. I’m trying again now, and I am getting past the sticking point.
I did a bootcamp last year - I was extremely quiet for the first two days, but found my feet, and at the end of the week I felt full of Welsh. A couple of months later I had another week in Wales and I spoke not one word of Welsh. How silly is that? This year I want to do better when I am in Wales.
I do a bit of Welsh skyping now, and I know it’s doing me good. Sometimes it feels like I understand nothing in a sentence, but it only takes one unknown word to cause that feeling.
Keep going!
Polly

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#64

:slight_smile: I’ll take this one for granted although I am not sure if people are really interested in “problems” I have. And besides … why they should be. :slight_smile:

And of course we’ll “catch” each-other on Skype again. Practice makes perfect, this one I already know and yes, I have to agre with you on this point. There are (probably majority) of people who have much more access to any resource then I and some other of my kind have and this for they can practice one way or another much more then I can.

And … WHO SAYS I’D QUIT?
No matter what I feel, how highly disappointed I am upon myself, there was too much hard work spent on this to let it go. Going away would be like throwing all that spent time and effort into waste. This much determined and stubborn I am. It’s just that my need of letting people know about my discoveres, feelings and frustrations aswell as happy things (which obviously didnt’ come for me yet) is obviously bigger then that of many of you. Sorry for that though. Will try to “hold my horses” as you say in English.

#65

Me being quiet! I can’t imagine that even in Welsh. It would probably all being said wrong and I’d look like total noob, but it’s hard to stop me from talking. If that would be so, my husband would send me to such bootcamp every month for a week. - HAHA. :blush: :slight_smile: (joking though).

I admire you @pollypolly. You went through a heck of a journey. I believe you’ll do excellent in Wales this year. And if my “stories” and moanings can inspire you at least a bit, I’m honoured.

Thank you.

#66

Hi. Actually, no; I’m still on Challenge 12, and I’m afraid I may have to repeat it before I’ll feel able to move to Challenge 13. I hope I stick with Welsh as tenaciously as you seem to have done.

#67

Well, tell me when you will move to Challenge 13. I’m curious what you’d find out. Might be we find the solution for not being stuck there. Number 13 finally has to be a lucky one (as @Iestyn says) for us two aswell. :slight_smile:

My problem at Challenge 13 are long sentences in the past tense and those “The old woman said to me to tell you …” Too many subjects to care about. From three one is lightly missed by me.

As I couldn’t quite grasp those things the things in Challenge 14 were even worse for me with all those sisters and brothers who are trying to help, tell me to tell you something etc, etc …

Present tense - not such problem, past or future - big problem especially as Slovene doesn’t use that many variations of it at least not in colloquial speach.

So, tell me when you’re on it and how all those things seamed to you. It’s very likely you won’t have problems with that. :slight_smile:

#68

[quote=“tatjana, post:67, topic:1863, full:true”]
My problem at Challenge 13 are long sentences in the past tense and those “The old woman said to me to tell you …” Too many subjects to care about. From three one is lightly missed by me. [/quote]

That’s so totally normal. I’ve been doing this over five years and that problem still arises with the new course one.

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#69

AS Tyger says, completely understandable and no big deal. How many times in an everyday conversation does that kind of thing come up, really? My suggestion would be to get comfortable with “The old woman said”, then “The old woman said to me”. Totally separately, just practice saying “to tell me” and “to tell me what to do”. Then, leave it up to your brain to fill in the gaps, without worrying about the whole thing. In time, you will be able to join the two halves together quite naturally. Same with the other longer sentences. But most of all, do not get hung up on them. I am pretty sure that you could get by a lifetime without saying a sentence like that! The really magical thing is, you will work it out without having to worry about it, and it will get a lot easier!

Hwyl,

Stu

#70

One more tricky phrase.

I am fortunate enough I really probably won’t need those sentences as I don’t like to gosip at all. :slight_smile: and would probably reply “tell her/him by yourself” :sunny:

On sirious note: those things caused me problems in Challenge 14 then and as I moved further to Challenge 15 the problem was even bigger.

But yes, sloooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwllllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy :slight_smile: I’ll get used to ignore things as they arise.

Will try to do as suggested. It might really help. Thank you.

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#71

That “rywbeth” just doesn’t stick anywhere. Wherever I put it it’s wrong. Now where this thing actually has to be?

It all sounds like “tell me to tell you to tell me …”

#72

:smile:

You know, more than a few times with the English sentences in some of the lessons, I was a little bit confused. “What, who is saying what to who now?” :wink:
I just ignored it and went on to the other sentences.

If the English sentences are confusing, I really wouldn’t worry about not getting the Welsh right. Just plough through it and go on to the rest of the lesson.

As other people have said, if you can understand the ‘simpler’ sentences (that is, those that seem like sentences you will actually use :wink: ) and have a go at them in Welsh, the course will be working. Just plough through and ignore the sentences which seem too complicated - that’s what I did, and my first language is English!

I know this can be difficult - thinking “well, I ought to be able to translate the sentence if it’s in the course!”

But some of them can be a little bit more complicated than you will need, as other people have pointed out.

I had to send a message to someone in English the other day, saying that “(someone) asked me to ask you to send a message to them” - it felt rather awkward and I had to check it over - in my first language, as I say!

So if the sentence in English is complicated and you can’t really follow it, just - well, muddle through it as best you can, but ignore the mistakes!

In some ways sentences like that are good practice, but they aren’t necessary to get right before moving on.

Just my thoughts on the matter!

Remember that getting everything right isn’t necessary on the course - especially with complicated sentences!

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#73

Thx @owainlurch.

I meant actuall position of rywbeth rather then the meaning of it.

And, to explain how I work, I’ll say it once again: I never actually translate sentences but rather go somehow like: sentence is said now I have to remember the words in Welsh as English is like kind of first language to me and don’t need actual double translation. It’s getting all rather quick just saying things without any special translation of it but usually when I’m at the end of what I tend to say and hear @Iestyn repeat the sentence I start to be aware I’ve said it wrong, many times even catchig myself I’ve used totally different (sadly wrong) word which just sounds a bit similar. So, as you see, I somehow don’t need to think what was said in English and mostly are the structures of the sentences those which are put wrong, not words themselves.

Yes, yes, however when the words have to be rememberred in real conversation, you had a chance to hear what happens … empty space filled with bunch of English words puring in like rain. :slight_smile: .

Gee, I really many times talk as it would rain. :slight_smile:

A … dwi’n meddwl braidd yn glou ond siarad yn arafach. :slight_smile:

#74

Rather poetic! :wink:

Oh, as you know those spaces will shrink more and more as you practice speaking with others, as you know!

And I of course know that you are fluent in English, having enjoyed talking to you the other day - but the point I was making is that even people fluent in English like ourselves can have a bit of difficulty following the “she said that you said that he wanted to say to you…” business!

As you say, just following the meaning - and therefore the structure - in order to say it in another language can be a bit difficult - or I found it to be, anyway!

So again, I would think it is far more important to pay attention to the sentences which have a simpler structure. Get those, and you will be able to have complicated conversations with simple sentences!

And as you know, the same goes for using similar sounding words (using them in a conversation rather than echoing them is a good way of remembering them) but as I have said, you are more used to learning languages than me!

Dw i’n gwybod ti’n meddwl braidd yn glou, :wink: and if you continue having conversations in Welsh over Skype I’m sure before long you will be talking in Welsh - well, if not as quickly as you think, quickly enough to enjoy a conversation in welsh!

I really enjoyed talking to you the other day, and I’m sure that before long I’ll be able to have as much fun talking to you mostly in Welsh rather than mostly in English!

Hope to speak to you again soon!

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#75

I regarded it more to the fact that I think too quick and always want to tell everything in one single moment. :slight_smile:

Of course we’ll talk again. It was enjoyable so I can’t see why it wouldn’t be again.

#76

Don;t worry about this, Tatjana - it’s part of the process. You will mix similar sounding words, you will mix words with similar meanings, and you will mix all sorts of other things that are mostly similar in some way, but sometimes totally different. The only thing that is wrong about this happening is if you worry about it!

Great to hear that you had a Skype conversation with Owainlurch - however “good” you are at a language, if you don’t speak it to someone, it’s not really a living language with you. The opposite is true. Hwever “badly” you speak a language, if you use it in conversations, then it is a living language, a language that you can use to express yourself, a real thing that has a use and a part in your life.

If everyone who had done one lesson of SSiW spoke “bad” Welsh as much as they could, we would transform the world! (With the huge added advantage that the best way to turn “bad” Welsh into “good” Welsh is to speak it as much as possible!)

:star:

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#77

On this part I couldn’t agree more. :slight_smile:

Diolch yn fawr @Iestyn. Bydda yn trio dim i becso.

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#78

Well, sorry, but I just decided I have to say this.

Whenever I see the title of this topic I start to laugh because it would be more suitable to be titled “Tatjana - Stuck reports” rather then “progress reports”. :smile: :smile: :smile:

Let’s see if I can make some progress reports out of “stuck” ones in a while. :slight_smile:

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#79

Simple (rather a bit stupid) question.

I’ve written this sentence down on twitter: “Wnaethoch chi enill!” but I never know for sure is there yn or 'n in the sentence or not. So what i mean, is “Wnaethoch chi enill!” correct or “Wnaethoch chi’n enill!”

Sometimes I’m very confused with those “yn” thingys where to put them and where not.

Diolch.

#80

What you wrote, without “yn” is right.
You use “yn” only with forms of bod, but not when you use “wnes i,wnest ti etc” or “dw i wedi , ti wedi etc”

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