The Welsh Government want your opinion

[robbruce]

I haven’t got time to write an essay on this, so like Louis I’m just going to bullet point a few impressions:

• Governments have surprisingly little power over social and cultural change. It’s no use stating that “people should do this that or the other” and then expecting the government, especially a government with restricted political and economic powers to be able to make them do it. This is difficult stuff, and in many ways is swimming against the tide of current social movements (globalisation etc.) There is hard work ahead.

• Swimming against the tide of globalisation is additionally hindered by the lack of a national media. This hinders the ability of many people to see anything in a Welsh context, to see the value in Welsh culture both contemporary and historical, to see and value the differentness of Wales.

• I keep wanting to ask “Why?”. It’s just taken for granted through the document that increasing the number of Welsh speakers is a good thing, a worthy aim, but the reason(s) why are never really clarified. It can’t be “just because”, so what is it? If we are going to convince the sceptical that all of this effort (and, since the subject is bound regularly to crop up, money) is worthwhile, we need to get our story straight, don’t we?

[AnthonyCusack]

Unfortunately we live in a very materialistic world. Advertising is key. Not only because it assists with sales but because that’s what generates the subliminal. Watching S4C is great, but every 10-15 minutes or so it’s back into English. Posters, shop signs, etc. Although I’m very annoyed with walesonline’s dealing with the Gorsedd and Football situation, using coverage of the football and rugby and developing an association with things at the centre of Welsh culture, like these, with the Welsh language will be a huge boost.
Getting rid of Team GB and allowing Wales to compete as an independent country will be another boost. (Without getting too political about this). Culture needs to be associated with Welsh. There’s no point in driving up the amount of time teaching in Welsh if as soon as you leave that environment you’re surrounded by English. Music, TV, advertising, sport…they need to be in Welsh.

[tatjana]

To be honest, I didn’t go through the document yet but reading some posts here my brains just throw back to me what my thoughts were once upon a time already.

• Welsh should not be seen as “second” language in all Wales not just in some parts.
• Maybe it’s time to stop looking back to the history be reminded all the time that this and that is guilty that so many Welsh people don’t speak Welsh anymore or they even are not taught the language at all. It has to be the future look with considdering every single idea of how to “make Wales Welsh” again if you want to put things like that.
• In schools, just like @Deborah-SSi says Welsh should be considdered just Welsh (I prefer Cymraeg though) and not second or first or whatever language. This is language of Welsh people so they should speak it or at least be aknowledged to it.
• More conversational approach could do the trick, why not?
• Welsh language (and culture) should not be seen as a matter of centres, communities and people of the good will who are willing to put their effort into spreading it, teaching it and making people aware of it. It should be started by the government itself. Do all members of it speak Welsh and use it in everyday life? Here’s the start. The highest leaders should be example and those who all people are looking up to and not oposite way.
• and, yes, daily life should adapt to use Welsh first and even then English (if neccessary at all). This is Wales and people should feel at the first glance it is so not only tourists who come, maybe learn and try to use the language “in the wild” (our popular expression on here). And maybe … in key institutions it might be good every employee should know at least basic Welsh. By key institutions I mean all those of th public services and those which are “highly neccessary” in daily life.
• Not just schools, there could be other institution, especially those dealing with sport (like rugby clubs as rugby is highly popular and called national sport) should be considdered to play very important role in making Welsh to be taught and spoken in Wales. What people love they’ll adopt especially children. I’m happy to see WRU engaging with the public in Welsh now more then they did in the past so … this should be momentum to be used to promote the importance of the Welsh language and culture in general.

All the rest was said here already so I’d just waste anyone’s time to repeat it all. Wlelsh first then English should be the major and key thing to do first and of course making impression on children, young people that speaking Welsh is important, highly neccessary and great. …

I’m looking very much forward to the day when there would not be needed signs in shops, businesses and pubs etc which read “we speak Welsh.”, “Welsh learners and speakers welcome.” etc, etc, but speaking Welsh would be rather so natural that no one would even think about whether speak/use their Welsh, no matter what small amount, at all but it would be totally natural to use the language just because they are in Wales.

From all this I just see I’ve done the only right thing when I was in Wales … spoke Welsh first and only then English if neccessary. However I think resorting to English was neccessary way too many times but, despite I’m not even close to be Welsh, that was not by my fault …

[Toffidil]

I still have not read the consultation document and will try to do this over the weekend, but want to pick up on comments by Rob Bruce who threw down the gauntlet – unfortunately with what is going to be an essay - sorry - why use one sentence, when a hundred will do.

The main point is “why” and to me that triggers feelings of talking to young children, whose favourite and most awkward of questions invariably start with “why” or “pam”. Why do birds fly?, why is the moon round?, why does it rain?.

Whenever you try to answer those questions they invariably lead to another “why” question and it keeps going until eventually you have to move on or simply say it is simply “because it is”.

I asked someone once for a welsh expression to help me with the inquisitive and curious chain of “pam” questions from my four year old daughter. He had in his memory something his grandfather used to say to him in Welsh, but unfortunately he couldn’t remember it very well and he wrote it down for me, half in Welsh and half in English, with all the spellings in English, because he hadn’t had any school education in Welsh. It went along the lines of “why is a question. It’s like a line that’s as straight as a figure of eight”. It is seemingly nonsense or maybe very philosophical. To me it does sum up differences of perspective – to many a line is something that you draw with a ruler and a pencil, something with a beginning and an end, but to others a figure of eight is a more beautiful line with no straightness and no ending.

Personally I am very content with answering “why” when it comes to the language with a “just because” and I don’t need to justify that to myself. I would often answer this with “why do you ask”. It is not a religious belief or anything, it is simply something that triggers warm feelings and contentment, like a beautiful piece of music or a lovely picture. I do wear my heart on my sleeve and I am very proud of it.

So to me the really important “why” question is why are people asking why. Money is always questioned and thrown into these discussions, but that is really because some people just don’t understand why. Even though the amount of money spent is actually very small, you will never be able to justify spending money on things that people don’t want or understand or cannot relate to.

To me we have to park the language for a second and take several steps back and link this to why do people like living in Wales or do they like living in Wales. Why do the vast majority of people in Wales choose to identify their nationality as Welsh, while some people clearly don’t. If there are divided loyalties or splits between how people think in terms of Wales, then what responsibilities do we have to ensure we can build a better Wales going forward. Unfortunately some things will always be non-negotiable and those things can lead to a rub.

There will be lots of reasons and language may not be part of that, but if people respond with things like the country has lovely beaches and scenery, the people are friendly, my kids are happy here in English medium schools. To me it is then about then offering people more insight into why Wales is like it is and think about how it could be better based on what has happened over the years to make this place what it is. Why should we abandon all the distinctive things from the past in order to build a different future. We embrace change, but the most important thing about change is recognising the strengths in what we already have and build from those.

Basically there could be lots of positive triggers and reasons, but there will still be people who say that the place is a dump, full of tribal village idiots or I was born here and I can’t wait to get out. These people have to be engaged with and made to feel part of a positive future, where the majority of people in Wales want to build on what we have. We should never have to explain why we don’t want tear down the house to build a completely different one.

The winners in globalisation are going to be the ones who are distinctively and positively different – difference is going to be a prize asset in an increasingly homogenised world. In Wales I feel we have a strong base from which to build our distinctive style of difference, both in outlook and respect for world cultures and other people’s traditions, wants and needs. To me why do we need the language has a simple answer. It is an essential ingredient in helping us to grow, with pride in our sociability and sense of community. This empowers people by providing a powerful sense of self identity which is a very, very valuable thing in what would otherwise be an increasingly bland world of globalised group thinkers.

Can we do all these things without the language – yes. Will it be harder to do without the language – well to me throwing away or not supporting any of our strengths will always make things harder. Can we have it all –
I think yes. The investment of any amounts of intellectual capital, time and finance is really tiny compared to the benefits.

[sarapeacock]

To me why do we need the language has a simple answer. It is an essential ingredient in helping us to grow, with pride in our sociability and sense of community. This empowers people by providing a powerful sense of self identity which is a very, very valuable thing in what would otherwise be an increasingly bland world of globalised group thinkers.

I love this bit. Thank you.

[warrendavies]

I keep wanting to ask “Why?”. It’s just taken for granted through the document that increasing the number of Welsh speakers is a good thing, a worthy aim, but the reason(s) why are never really clarified

I agree with this. See my post from June Does Welsh Have A Future...?

[gavinM]

When people first move into a new area, the ‘welcome pack’ of material sent by local authorities provides an opportunity to include material publicising opportunities to speak, learn and support Welsh in the area.

I think SSiW could have a huge and positive role to play in this. Publicising this wonderful system where you quickly learn to speak the language without having to read or write anything, would surely “hit the spot” with many potential learners!

[gavinM]

in key institutions it might be good every employee should know at least basic Welsh. By key institutions I mean all those of th public services and those which are “highly neccessary” in daily life.

Absolutely, Tatjana. And a good place to start would be with Wales’ monolingual railway!

I recently spent a short holiday in North Wales and travelled a number of times up and down the North Wales main line (Chester - Llandudno Jct - Bangor - Holyhead). I was amazed to see that virtually everything seemed to be solely in English. The information screens on the platforms and inside the trains - all English. The pre-recorded announcements of the station stops - all English.

I was chatting to the staff member of Arriva Trains Wales at the ticket barrier at Bae Colwyn/Colwyn Bay station, and asked her whether she is able to speak Welsh, and the answer was “no”. I expressed surprise and said “is it not a requirement then, as you come into contact so much with the public?”. Answer: once again “no”.

One day I was on a Conwy Valley line train. and when I presented my “Explore Wales” pass, the conductor asked me where I was going. I said “Betws y Coed” and I KNOW I pronounced it correctly. He looked puzzled and I had to repeat myself. (Perhaps he was used to hearing it pronounced Betsy-Co-Ed, as per a previous forum posting!!)

How on earth does Arriva Trains Wales get away with running a monolingual railway? Surely a key condition of the franchise should be that staff should be able to speak at least basic Welsh, and all public announcements (recorded or otherwise) should be in both languages?

[Toffidil]

On that topic and something that would costs nothing at all - I took an Ariva train from Cardiff to Manchester Picadilly - a very slow train indeed. On the way up the recorded anouncements on the train for the stations etc were in both languages, but on the way back they were only in English. As someone who lived in England for years and used to get excited by the Welcome to Wales signs and the sight of the severn bridge or the Brynglas tunnels, I would have been thrilled to hear the announcements in Welsh on reentering Wales. It would be a very simple thing to do and send out a message that the train is now in Wales. Maybe a recorded “Croeso cynnes iawn i chi gyd i gymru, wlad o beirdd a chantorion” or something else like a couple of bars of Calon Lan on entering Wales would be really nice little novelty thing??

[warrendavies]

If we are going to convince the sceptical that all of this effort (and, since the subject is bound regularly to crop up, money) is worthwhile, we need to get our story straight, don’t we?

Yes, just looking at how important people in Wrexham (a border county) rated the importance of ’ Supporting and promoting culture and Welsh language’ last year, they rated it 26th out of 26 areas of possible concern (see page 20 of, http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/assets/pdfs/consultations/council_plan/wity_key-findings_2016.pdf).

[stuart_robertson_758]

Cracking Cardiff should be a key aim. If the capital can be converted then it gives a huge incentive to the rest of the country.

[tatjana]

If the capital can be converted then it gives a huge incentive to the rest of the country.

Agreed.

At least I didn’t get any “hostile” looks or responses when starting talking in Cymraeg and (hehe) when I said from where I come from the thingys got even “softer”. If I’d push even a bit further then I did … who knows … maybe I’d be able to convince more people to start learning it. Although I was a bit disappointed not to hear more Cymraeg where I wandered around. I’ve heard a lot of it from the people walking the streets but not in the shops, services and what’s more to it. BUT I was very pleasantly surprised with the fact that people who are not originally from Cymru (like one guy in one suvenier shop) speak Cymraeg very well and they reach out with response in Cymraeg if they hear you speaking the language. That’s why I say we have to use Cymraeg wherever we think they might speak it and in particular if we’re in Cymru.

[hectorgrey]

I wonder if they actually tested that form on Chrome…

[rob]

So I may be speaking out of turn… being over here in the States renders my input questionable, I’ll admit. Also, my one visit to Wales was a cycling trip from Holyhead to Cardiff back in 2009. So I may be ignorant of a fair bit of nuance.

But as an American it’s my civic duty to give an opinion whether its wanted or not [really, it’s in our Constitution, I think].

Anyway, I grew up just south of Quebec in the 80’s. Montreal was where I went for concerts and cultural events through all of my adolescence. At that time there was a great deal of concern and strife about preserving the French language and culture. Advertising was mostly in English, most announcements were made in English first, and studies showed a decreasing usage for French in day to day life. It was a stressful time for the province because many felt that French culture was dying.

Over the summer, I visited Montreal for the first time in 20-some years and found a complete change. All ads and most signs were in French only, announcements were primarily given in French, and I heard the language being spoken everywhere. Even little things like being greeted by the waitstaff in French had me trying to cast my mind back to the few (polite) phrases I could remember.

From what our hosts said, the change really started with The Charter of the French Language, which might be worth a look for ideas that could be adapted to Wales.

I realize it’s different since Quebec was/is majority French-speaking, however there are some things that might be applicable. I’m thinking specifically of the fundamental language rights. Also, our hosts said that new immigrants to Quebec (whether coming from other parts of Canada or outside the country) has to learn French as part of the immigration process.

So that’s what I’ve got, for what it’s worth.

[elizabeth_jane]

I have been mulling on this. The way I see it there are three areas to address:

1. the people di-Gymraeg who value the Welsh language but for some reason don’t want to learn it. My suspicion is that many try (if the number of second hand Cwrs Mynediad books is anything to go by) but the experience of going to endless night classes for very little gain is daunting. Ditto the people who move to Wales. The present system with its emphasis on classes and books is uninspiring. They need to be offered an alternative (like SSiW). This needs to be advertised on non Welsh speaking TV and radio.

2. there needs to be an earnest attempt to create a sense of play and participation in relation to the language. At present, it would appear to me that the language is an incredibly emotive issue. Non Welsh speakers resent what they perceive as an implication that they are less Welsh than Welsh speakers. If they don’t speak Welsh fluently, they will not use any Welsh, in case people expect them to continue in Welsh. It is like, you either have to be fluent or not speak at all. I think the emphasis should shift from ‘you have to learn Welsh’ to ‘we can all use some Welsh.’ To this end, small language teaching packages should be developed for bus drivers, railway staff, cafe and supermarket staff - anyone who is dealing with the public - so that they can learn some basic greetings and interactions. I figure that if you take away the ‘you have to be fluent’ attitude and give people permission to participate and enjoy small language exchanges, they may just decided to keep learning. Companies like Arriva, Lloyds buses, Coop supermarkets etc. should be encouraged to roll out such packages. The aim being that simple purchases and greetings should be able to occur in Welsh, anywhere.

3. Cymru Cymraeg need educating - on how to speak in simple sentences to learners, how not to roll their eyes or mutter dysgwr to their colleagues under their breath, or tell learners a that they only speak Welsh at home with their families, or point out that they don’t say it that way around here. I’ve had all those things happen to me. Yet, at other times, I’ve experienced incredibly generosity and patience. If Cymru Cymraeg want the Welsh language to continue they need to be taught how to help learners.

Those are my thoughts for what they are worth. v

[robbruce]

I still have not read the consultation document and will try to do this over the weekend, but want to pick up on comments by Rob Bruce who threw down the gauntlet – unfortunately with what is going to be an essay - sorry - why use one sentence, when a hundred will do.

Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t asking for reasons why people should speak welsh. We, you and me and most people on this forum know them. I’m asking for the government to make them clear in their documents. Otherwise we will get nowhere.

Half a million new speakers will necessarily include people, or the children of people, who currently don’t see the point. That should be our first goal. To get the sceptical and the people who have never even really thought about it to think “Oh, yeah, actually, this is something we should all be taking part in.”

[elizabeth_jane]

Half a million new speakers will necessarily include people, or the children of people, who currently don’t see the point. That should be our first goal. To get the sceptical and the people who have never even really thought about it to think "Oh, yeah, actually, this is something we should all

I agree. This is the biggest challenge. Many of them (in the valleys) are socially and economically disadvantaged. Education may not have been a good experience for them.

[warrendavies]

Half a million new speakers will necessarily include people, or the children of people, who currently don’t see the point. That should be our first goal. To get the sceptical and the people who have never even really thought about it to think "Oh, yeah, actually, this is something we should all

I agree. This is the biggest challenge. Many of them (in the valleys) are socially and economically disadvantaged. Education may not have been a good experience for them.

I agree too. I think we need to provide inspiration before education.

[Toffidil]

Thanks, I get your point now and really must read the document. In isolation I suppose it is difficult to say to sceptics to explain why and maybe it has been sidestepped.

The target of 1million Welsh speakers could come across as a nice wish, no different to I’d like a train set for Christmas. It could be justified on the basis of giving people what they want if the evidence is there to back that up or perhaps it should be part of something bigger that people buy into for different reasons and accept that the language is an element of it. Perhaps it would be simpler to explain why on the basis that it is a key pillar in an overall strategy or plan whatever that may be. Ideally this would be part of an economic strategy. That could work, but it is a difficult one alhtough raising the profile of Wales in the world and providing a hook to engage people from around the world in something unique and interesting might work. Culture probably comes low down in people’s everyday priorities, even if you could convince people it was important culturally. Health and well being, you can build a case, but will a sceptic be won over by it. To be honest I’m not sure what the overarching thing should be, but it would be easy to support and explain the target of a million speakers if it was essential for achieving something bigger perhaps. Basically I suppose we need to explain this as part of a vision of where we want to be. We don’t have that vision from what I can see and so stating why is going to be a hard one - hence it isn’t there.