Course 3 Lesson 21 Southern question

Still working on getting a feel for when to use cael - I understand that this will get better with more exposure. However, I’m a bit confused about the following:

In the lesson, when we learn mynnu, we then have the sentences

I insist on getting an answer. – Dw i’n mynnu cael ateb.

I insist on knowing. – Dw i’n mynnu cael gwybod.

When I did the second sentence I skipped the “cael”, but I guess there is an implied “getting to know the answer”, so okay. But then later in the lesson, we have

I’ll insist on knowing what you said. - Wna i fynni gwybod beth wedaist ti.

No cael in this one, when I was expecting there to be. To me it’s the same meaning as the second sentence above. Is this just a case of “fine either way”, with or without cael, or am I missing something?

(Yes, I know by now, just roll with it, and I usually do, but this one is bugging me for some reason!)

Hmmm … I don’t remember those even if I made them, but at the first glance I’d say you stick “cael” in the sentence where you have some kind of subject (in this case “gwybod”) but I don’t see where you could stick “cael” in the sentence with “beth sedaist ti”? There 's no subject in the sentence, but rather deed (action - wedaist ti) which you actually can’t “get” …

This is very unexpertised observation from very “unproffessional” learner but it might be something in it though.

Siriously I don’t see the place to stick “cael” into the this sentence but you might brighten my knowledge with where you would put it.

Otherwise … @aran, @Iestyn or @garethrking maybe … (to tag some of experts so you could get your answer a bit faster …) :slight_smile:

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This is just about what feels right to a particular speaker - you can get away with using cael or not in either of those cases… The important thing for us is that you’re getting sensitised to hearing that usage of it… :slight_smile:

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Aye … I’m using “cael” way too often … :slight_smile:

Diolch @aran.

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Diolch, Aran! At this point in the course are learning alternative ways of saying the same thing, which is obviously good - but there are times when I’m not sure if what comes out if my mouth in response to a prompt is alternative or just plain wrong :slight_smile: Good to know that this falls into the alternative category.

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Well I would rather agree with you there @AnnaC - I would put cael in there, and for this reason: in that sentence, the person is actually asking the other one to impart the knowledge - the speaker doesn’t know yet what was said, and is asking to be informed. It’s a dynamic process here, and I think that is conveyed by the cael. I wouldn’t go to war over it, mind - but I sense that the version without cael is really (if subconsciously) modelled on the English.

When ‘know’ really means ‘be informed’, I would suggest that cael gwybod is more authentic.

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So, very nooby question but anyway: Where would “cael” go in the first sentence?

Wna i fynni cael gwybod beth wedaist ti. ???

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Yes! Right there! :slight_smile:

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Of course!

Only now, when I’ve written the sentence, I’m aware “cael” connects to “gwybod” and not “wedaist ti”. Gee, what was I thinking???!!!

Diolch @garethrking yn fawr iawn yn wir! :slight_smile:

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Thank you for that explanation, @garethrking - really helpful. This clarifies for me what I was trying to get at when I was thinking about “an implied ‘getting to know the answer’”.

(Somewhat unrelated general comment - Just now, looking at cael gwybod made me think of an expression I’ve been picking up from watching Byw Celwydd - I think it’s rho wybod, “let me know”. (Now there’s a show that reinforces the Course 2 Vocab 5, with all the words like sylweddoli and bwriadu. I used to have trouble remembering them, but not so much anymore. I think the actors must say “dim sylw” in their sleep at this point :wink: )

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