Agreed, however, telling argumental response isn’t agression yet and I’d surely do that politely but what I meant is that arguments would be “hard” and to the point though (it can be made politely too).
I’m glad unkind and agressive response is rare. To be honest, I never got agressive response to my starting Welsh conversation while being in Wales. To tell the truth, I’m always a bit surprised reading some not so good experiences on here since I found people in UK very friendly and kind, to my saddness upon my country, much more friendly then people in my own country will ever be being regarding speaking our own language (as if you’d learn my language and come to visit) or in general. And yes, of course, people from abroad are always treated differently no matter the country as it’s usually seen from the top of the mountain if one is from abroad or not. I’m noticed for being from abroad even before I open my mouth for that matter though.
Why should you be suggesting no one would? I remember my friend who learned Norwegian and, when he went there, found nobody would speak it to him. If he tried, they were insulted because it implied he thought they couldn’t speak English!
To be fair, my abilities with languages are not such that I’d rush into SSiSlovene, but some or our polyglots would, I bet!!
Awawaw … I’d obviously need some English lessons too. It was not meant this way and I only now am aware what the sentence I’ve written is suggesting to. No, what I meant is that it’s similar like you’d learn my (Slovene) language and come to Slovenia visiting it and speaking the language.
Mae’n ddrwg gen i - iawn iawn! I should not jump in without thinking. I read it that way, but I know perfectly well that English is not your first language and I should have realised you didn’t mean it the way I jumped at!!
Helo pawb - inspirational stuff, and galvanizing me to try my Cymraeg more. Have been learning through Lefel 1, but often lack the confidence to initiate conversations and use the Cymraeg- out of fear of going blank, not remembering, usual excuses etc.! Was coping more I felt at the eisteddfod, where being immersed in Cymraeg I felt it inevitable that I would initiate conversations in it, irrespective of the amount of mistakes. But outside of the Cymraeg environment, I feel more self-conscious about using it and my abilities with it. Good to read folk on here having no such hang ups, and giving me the impetus to get out there and give it a rip! Diolch yn fawr iawn
Well today i attempted to start three conversations in welsh…two admittedly were outside a toilet in a cafe…i asked an old lady if she wanted to sit on the seat i was sitting on, i asked the waitress where the toilet was and i said something else which i cant remember. This was in Conwy and the waitress looked at me blank and the two others (i assume they were tourists) just said…we’re English. No apology at all. Recently i was in Belgium and i always apologised for my poor french or non existant Flemish.
What an interesting thread. I’ve just got back from a wonderful week travelling through Wales - my first time back since starting SSiW a year ago. I managed to enjoy some really positive experiences speaking in Welsh and / or about Welsh with people from Builth Wells (Met some nice people who talked in English about how Welsh was not used much in the High Street there, and about life in the town in general) to Llanrwst (Welsh is heard all around.)
In contexts where I felt there was an opportunity to use Welsh, I found a cheery ‘siw mae’ was often enough to initiate a response in Welsh (Diolch, Baruch!) and if not, I did not pursue it. Quiet charity shops seem fruitful locations, as people often have more time to engage in a real conversation. The shops display interesting things to talk about, and the obvious fact that I am a learner was a talking point too.
Whilst on bootcamp we visited Castell Hen Llys and had a great tour by a girl called Delyn. Whilst in one of the buildings she explained (in English) to a family that the tour would be in Welsh, to which a woman replied “well that’s not useful to us at all”. A response I don’t know, but doubt, we would have heard if she’d said the tour would be in French or Japanese. It annoyed me at the time and took my head a little while to focus back on the tour, Iestyn kindly translated for the group as Delyn spoke to us in Welsh. This slightly took away from the Welsh emersion because my English ear kept picking up on the familiar. It was the selfishness of the statement that frustrated me and the implied meaning, whether intended or not, that if it’s in Welsh it should be in English.
I smiled to that and muttered to myself “but it’s useful to us …” If she has heard me or not I don’t know and I didn’t care at the time.
I bet it would be something like: “Oh, how interesting although we don’t understand anything.” or maybe “Oh, interesting. I (we) learn French too.” It actually irritates me that people are so keen to step forward and take some kredits if they learn languages like French, German, Japanese or similar, but they rather keep hiding if there’s the word of Welsh for example. I’m more proud to learn Welsh then any other language I’ve learnt.
Iestyn tried to translate as quietly as he could but my ears kept picking more English then Welsh too no matter how hard I tried what actually disturbed me greatly. Then, not to go everything to waste, I took this as an experiment and set my brains to listen Welsh with one ear and English with another forcing my brains to process as quickly as they (possibly) could both and compare with each other, keeping my mind to determine whether I understood Welsh part correctly or not. It had to be quick as both, Iestyn and Delyn have spoken quite fast but for the change I managed to “play that game” from the beginning to the end of presentation.
If I’d be that lady I’d probably sit there quietly and enjoy the sound of “music” while Delyn was talking. (But that’s me of course… )
I encounter this quite a lot when discussing the benefits of Welsh with colleagues. The expectation or assumption that because all Welsh speakers also speak English then it should be the latter that is used when around other non-speakers. It is why a percentage of people view the language as a ‘Waste of time’ because we can also speak English.
Despite this view and the disapproval I sometimes encounter with people (Both English & Welsh) who cannot speak the language, I think it’s important not to give up and not to let it taint my view on the majority of people.
I saw an old lady on S4C who was asked why speak Welsh, why not just use English and she replied with what I thought was an insightful answer. She said “It was better to have two windows on the world”. I hadn’t heard the saying before but thought it was lovely and it’s certainly very true. It opens up a community and history to which it would be difficult to understand otherwise.
The only way we’ll open people’s minds up is by using/showing them how lovely the language is and the people who speak it are!
I have just been reading the responses to something written by Mari Huws, the Welsh language commisioner on another forum and the responses are quite sickening to be honest. I couldn’t bring myself to reply to any of them, for fear of lowering myself to their level and saying something I might later regret.
I can more than understand tourists who come to Wales, expecting to speak English - it happens in Spain and France or wherever you go. What I cannot understand is the very vocal minority of people out there (and it’s the same people all the time) who vehemently dislike the language and actively choose to put the boot in to undermine it. It is a minority I know, but when you see the passion and effort that everyone on here has for the language it is gut wrenching to know that there are people out there who detest the language and spend a lot of their time doing whatever they can to undermine it. It is no wonder people like myself are always looking over our shoulders in pubs when trying to speak Welsh, wondering what others might be thinking. I’m old and big enough to take it in my stride, but I feel sorry for all the kids who might feel that pressure from time to time.
Sorry if this is too much for the forum and feel free to delete this post. I just needed to let off some steam somewhere.
I’m sure it’s linked to guilt or some kind of sense of being threatened (proud to be Welsh but feel less Welsh because you can’t speak it) or something ridiculous like that.
‘Not used much’ is perhaps an understatement. I grew up in Builth. The only time I hear Welsh spoken in Builth is during Show week and occasionally visitors, there is only a tiny handful of Welsh speakers in the town.
I first encountered written and spoken Welsh on trips to Wales, starting I suppose in my early teens, or maybe a bit before. Also when in England, because of shared transmitters, you´d sometimes get Welsh language programmes on the telly in the daytime. Anyway, my reaction to this, from a totally monoglot English background, was simply one of (mild?) curiosity. Eventually I learned Welsh (or at least a bit of Welsh) for the same reason that people give for climbing mountains, ¨Because it´s there!¨
What continues to puzzle and indeed disappoint me is that so many English speakers, and it usually is English speakers, simply lack this basic linguistic curiosity? Druan o beth, on dydi?
FI live in North Wales but work in Liverpool. The comments I get from colleagues sickens me. It’s not the occasional joke, it’s the constant criticism of what’s the point, it’s a dead language, why do you all start speaking Welsh when we walk into a cafe, have you heard the Welsh for microwave etc etc etc.
It’s the stereotyping, the bigotry, the arrogance etc that annoy me.
And this is done in front of students too. I’m a teacher.
If I were to go in and say new locking wheel nuts on my car today, so it won’t be on bricks tonight there would be all hell to play.
So my response? Every morning it’s bore da, every night it’s nos da etc etc. I praise the students in Welsh at times. I routinely say things in Welsh. No one understands but I feel they know I am proud to be Welsh and proud to be learning.
I went to Thailand three years ago and met my (by then deceased) brother’s colleagues. He had been in Thailand for just over 2 years before he died working in various places and for various employers, teaching English. Of the six colleagues I met one was Thai and spoke Thai. One was American and had lived in Thailand for over 20 years. He had learned Thai and Lao. One was a recently arrived Philipinna. The other American and two Brits and, I expect my brother, had no interest beyond ordering a meal or a taxi. One said ’ I’m here to teach English, not to learn Thai’. Talk about cultural imperialism.
It is possible to find lists of ‘how difficult is it to learn’ various languages. Thai is near the top. Welsh, interestingly enough, doesn’t get a look in. But they are living there. What about respect? What about communication? It makes me weep.
It’s not about Welsh, but the story goes on. Here in Slovenia we have mixture of everything what lived in ex Yugoslavia and it makes me feel a bit irritated when I know people who live in our country for entire life and only having families there in Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo (or whatever country), on short being another nationality but Slovene makes them not learning Slovene for their entire life. They are born with their mother language and they die with it, knowing little or even no Slovene at all. Fortunately the languages are not so different from each other so we (as humble as we can be sometimes regarding languages) understand them and even speak to them in their language quite too many times.
But on the other hand, we have people (quite some fo them) who came from the countries allover the world and their languages are not even a bit similar to Slovene but yet they learn Slovene and they speak it in everyday life. For some I know you would never tell they’re from abroad if not visually different (mostly those are people from Asia, Africa etc) because of their so good accent of our language.
But to my surprise, I’ve met one Englishman on twitter who (at least writes, don’t know how he speaks as I never heard him) can Slovene very well.
So, yes, it is about respect, interest in knowing the culture of the country you live in and communication.
I, in the past, have usually helped to workers in the shops or services if they couldn’t speak and understand English or German if I whitnesed such situation, but nowdays not anymore. People have to find their own way to communicate with the citizens of the country they come and feel the need of giving as much effort into knowing local language as those who live there put the effort to respond in foreign language. Even tourists could try a word or two in local language before totally resort to English, I believe.
I tend to agree, however with cheap travel it becomes difficult.
This past couple of years i have visited the seychelles, italy, netherlands, norway, sweden, Malaysia, portugal, thailand, germany and belgium. Bar a simple greeting there was no way i would be able to manage much more and knowing i was not likely to ever go back meant there was little point in learning much more.
However what i feel is important is acknowledging that as a tourist they are doing you a favour by using english. My experience of brits abroad is that they expect or demand that english is spoken. Similarly in Wales.
I ought to learn Norwegian as i now go every year. And maybe i will make the effort. But i too know people who make no effort despite living abroad. Expats in their little expat communities. Imagine the outcry here if the poles or whoever learnt no english.
I’m noticed for being from abroad even before I open my mouth for that matter though. 
