Do you initiate conversation in Welsh before English?

If not for the other, now there are many good (and not so expensive) phrase books out there in all kinds of languages and when I was in Spain for a week about (ups, so long ago?) 23 years ago I had no particular clue of Spanish but yet I’ve tried to learn some. Comming there at first I was more or less quiet but the more the week went toward the end the more I babbled in Spanish, tiny little things like ordering sangria and beer, having my coffee, saying “hola”, etc. You, with so many traveling experiences probably can picture the expression on local’s faces when they had heard their language spoken by the tourist who could very easily resort to English. I felt I made much more with my trying to speak then just speak, I showed the respect toward them, their language and country. And, yes, of course, if I’d start to think how bad my Spanish was, I probably wouldn’t even open my mouth. So, I believe, if even just “hello” in whatever language, it makes wonders. But, yes, there are “bad” people allover the World who don’t charrish the effort of either, being local or tourist. And I know very well how it goes with nations living together in one country … we had many experience with that … 6 nations, more languages … and we weren’t always like “brothers” with each-others either regarding culture, language usage and so on. So, yes, I know the point.

But, to return to the topic itself (speaking about Welsh), I sometimes wonder if we, who are not Welsh, can really contribute something to things to get better in Wales itself. The language will live this way and grow, but will it contribute to the state of mind of the people? I sincerely hope it would in a way. And you do just the right thing by my opinion with speaking some Welsh to your students. In time at least someone could show interest in the language and eventually start to learn it. You never know unless you do things which could potentially lead toward that goal. :slight_smile:

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Of course anyone who comes to a country and integrates contributes. Languages are what they are from the changes brought by invaders, from polyglots, or from close ties be in geographically or from trade.

English (and in my experience English people generally) have no sense of this. Even place names that are derived from Brythonic. English history ignores the manner in which cornish or welsh have been suppressed. Only recently has there been any acknowledgement of the destruction of Welsh communities to supply england with water. Why spoil the lake district when yoy can destroy wales?

The sad thing for me is this sense of superiority is so misplaced. The anglo saxons were conquered by the normans who subsequently eventually conquered wales. English history however tells us otherwise.

Anyway back to the point. The more we all use our Welsh the more the language will thrive. But also lets stop making it secondary to english. All places in wales should put welsh first. Road signs. Leaflets. Statuon announcements etc. That way it shows it is our language and not a bolt on

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No they don’t! Oh, almost all do, and all did, but there are more and more living longer and suffering various forms of dementia. I am more scared of that than any other fate and putting me down when lacking any sense of self is still illegal, But that is a digression. What I aimed to say is that some older folk remember their first-learned for longest. I certainly knew folk of my age who spoke Cymraeg until they went to school. If any of them suffer memory loss, it is the learned English they will forget or have forgotten!
On the subject of tourists or incomers expecting everyone else to change, I know the Foreign Office at the height of English arrogance made sure to teach those going to serve as diplomats in ‘foreign’ lands the correct language. Colonies were different. The natives were being taught the proper, civilized British (English) way of life, so must learn English. As a certain little bit of Britain had the bad taste to retain its old gabble, one could hardly expect civilized English to learn that, so… Some, particularly ladies, surprised by actually caring and learning and translating the Mabinogion, as an example! Most did not. And many moving into Wales seem still to be surprised to find the language there!
We only have problems with :slight_smile:

  • People who are Welsh, have never learned and feel threatened by the language - not proper Welsh, but won’t admit it and don’t think they can learn it.
  • Incomers with the arrogance of ‘the colonial power’ alive and well in them, despite the Empire’s end! Maybe they feel that living in an ordinary little country is a threat rather than a reality?

On the dementia point- that’s exactly what happened to my grandmother. As her dementia worsened she remembered less and less English and in the last two years couldn’t speak anything in English. My father learned Welsh very well just to be able to talk and listen to her.

I know there are many types of dementia and many people may also have the symptoms from other causes like mini strokes etc and it isn’t always the first language that’s retained. There was an example I read once of a Bulgarian who learned about five languages and in her final twenty years lived in and spoke only croatian. When she got dementia she couldn’t recall Bulgarian or croatian but could communicate with one of the other languages that she knew.

A newspaper story about twenty years ago covered a man who after a head trauma shocked everyone by speaking only Welsh. I think he was from Surrey and his wife had no idea he knew any Welsh, but turned out that he was evacuated to Wales in the war as a child and somehow had the language buried away. He eventually made a recovery and then spoke only English again.

The brain is a really wonderful thing that we still don’t understand very well.

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Probably a different one then, but similar story about four years ago-

The thing is, in his own words, -
“We were London Welsh and I learned a bit of Welsh when I was in London. Then, when I was evacuated to Wales during the war, we spoke it virtually all the time because my aunt didn’t speak much English, so I had to pick it up very quickly.”

The story really seems to be “bilingual London Welshman called Alun Morgan loses ability to speak English after stroke”.

I think the Daily Mail found it better to believe that something magical had happened rather than that bilingualism is/was a relatively common condition for London Welsh people.

Not to mention the comedic value to people of a certain type with the “WELSH” in capital letters, emphasising the ridiculousness of the idea.

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Come to think of it I actually find starting in Welsh with a stranger easier than CHANGING the language I’ve spoken with people I do know.

I was rescued from this yesterday by a Welsh speaking friend who’d discovered I’d learned. While giving me a lift in the car HE declared, “Right, after this lorry dim rhagor o Saesneg!”

Which was most helpful!

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YES! THIS! :slight_smile:

(Sorry, I’m shouting, but that’s how thrilled I am!)

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I have been thinking a bit about the ‘why’ of all this and I am wondering what kids in school in England actually learn in History lessons now.
I moved so often, I lost centuries sometimes because different areas did things in different orders, but I seem to recall starting with ‘savages painted blue and living in caves’ , followed, in class, by the arrival of the Romans. I don’t recall, in England, any mention of the indigenous Brits building Stonehenge or beautiful chambered tombs or making lovely pottery…or doing anything worthwhile.
If I carry on, I’ll be here all day, but I think each area of England learns a smidgen about its locality, totally without mention of whether this refers to British or invading Saxons or whoever. Children may truly have no idea that versions of Cymraeg were once spoken everywhere in Britain and that we were civilised Christians when invaded and driven west by Saxons, Angles, Jutes and Danes!

The impression is often that the Saxons were almost moving into empty country, even though there are places far from present day Wales which still have basically British or Romanised British names. I.e. as per usual the Welsh are an invisible group of non-persons, quietly air-brushed out of history. Small wonder so many English people just don´t ´get´ Wales.

Diolch! I did wonder if kids in places like Norfolk, learn about a certain Queen of the Iceni, Buddug (Boudica) as a local hero, but do not realise she wasn’t English!!

It was different where I grew up because it’s sandwiched between Dartmoor and Cornwall. So we were taken to stone circles and to Cornwall often. We were taught the Romans stopped at Caerwysg (Exeter), not entirely true but it necessitated the teaching of who lived where we were. My parents had more to do with it too, both very keen on their history. Also both are of Irish stock (my mum has roots in Amlwch too).

Most in my school knew Cornwall has its own language. Doesn’t mean they cared but they knew.

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https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-curriculum-in-england-history-programmes-of-study/national-curriculum-in-england-history-programmes-of-study
I think this is the latest from the government. There is local history in each Key Stage, so children in Wales should get to learn history relevant to them at some point. More importantly the idea is to equip children with the skills to investigate for themselves.

Reading some of the postings on this thread made me a bit sad.

I’ve spent most of my adult life in Israel, where frankly we’re proud that we’ve revived Hebrew as a living language in the last 100 years. The person most accredited with making it a living mother tongue (as opposed to a language largely for prayer and study), Eliezer ben Yehuda, is a national hero.

I know exactly what I’d say to anyone who tried to ridicule the revival of Hebrew to my face. And that’s precisely what I’d say to anyone who ridiculed my speaking Welsh if I lived in Wales and spoke the language. But I don’t think that I should put it into words on this site…

To all of you in Wales, get out there, be PROUD of your language, and ##%%!!** anyone who has a problem with it!

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@Baruch I have just been to the Dohany Street Synagogue in Budapest and the museum that now stands on Theodore Herzl’s house.

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You never know where you might unexpectedly come accross somebody who can speak Welsh:

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Great stuff…Have you named the rivers just “Wye” and “Severn”…or also used “Hafren” for Severn…and Gwy for Wye (an English corruption of Gwy funnily enough :slight_smile: )

Hi, I hope that this helps.
I lived in a village which is near to the borders of Cambridgeshire, Norfolk and Suffolk for about ten years. In fairness, the school children were taken on trips to a local (reconstructed) Iceni Village and taught about this British people group.

My own upbringing was in Newcastle, and the remains of the Roman Wall (Hadrians Wall) are situated at the end of the street where I lived. You can imagine that as children, we were able to gain a tangible understanding of the local British, Roman and Anglian cultures.

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To be fair, there was a lot of assimilation…

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The Britions had been part of the Roman empire for several hundred years. They were literate, fairly civilized and carried on Roman-style civil local government, which gradually evolved (devolved?) into petit kingdoms around military leaders, as conditions became less secure.

The Saxons etc. OTOH were an illiterate tribal society.

Normally when two such groups mix in a territory, the more civilized language and culture dominates, or at least major elements of it are adopted by the incomers. But that didn´t seem to happen in Britain. Old English, and indeed the modern language show very few loans or other influence from British/Welsh, other than a few placenames.

If there was indeed widespread assimilation this is hard to explain. One suggestion is that the English set up a kind of apartheid system, that kept the ´captive´ Britons apart in their own settlements or areas, from which they were very gradually absorbed into the English mainstream, e.g. by marriage, adopting English language and customs in the process.

This afaik is the only explanation I´ve seen for genetic mixing without the expected cultural and linguistic mix. It really is quite a puzzle.

There are many counter examples from the rest of the Roman empire, where peoples like the Franks in France or the Goths and Vandals in Italy and Spain, quickly adopted Roman ways and a Romance language.

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The above is for you Louis, I keep hitting the wrong Reply link, mae´n ddrwg gen i :frowning:

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