Do you initiate conversation in Welsh before English?

East Anglia and the south East were Belgic before they were Roman. Their language wouldn’t have been Brythonic, it would have been a different branch. “Celtic” was a phrase adopted by 18th century romantics looking at the languages of Briton. So it was unlikely that the Icini spoke a language any more related to Welsh than the Hallstatt culture spoke in Austria, or the Gauls in France.

Romance influence on Welsh and Cornish continued with the arrival of the Normans. Plus the Latin of the church would have had a continued influence. So again, we don’t know when these phrases arrived in the languages. We have to go on patchy written evidence. Literacy was only likely to be present amongst the rich, judiciary and Church. There’s no evidence of a public school system under Roman rule.

Cornish it’s far easier to understand its survival given that it was never an area never settled by the Romans. It would have had a good understanding based on trade but had very very little evidence of settlement.

Again, we don’t know what happened with the Saxon arrival. The lack of survival of Brythonic influence still does not necessitate obliteration of a people. This is an assumption based on modern experiences.

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And your evidence that the Belgae spoke a language distinct from the other British tribes? AFAIK all the evidence from inscription, personal and place names etc. point to a fairly uniform p-Celtic area, indeed not even especially distinctive from Gaulish, which of course is better attested, though from a somewhat earlier period.

Middle Cornish is closer in some ways to Middle Welsh than to the modern language, suggesting that they diverged from a common source during or shortly after the end of the Roman period.

Gaulish or Galatian may have survived up until about the 6th century AD - there are anecdotes and inscriptions from that period. The predominant or official language of the Belgae in Europe was almost certainly celtic and very similar if not almost identical to galatian, although large parts of the region occupied by the Belgae close to the rhine was supposedly a melting pot of Celtic and Germanic cultures.

It took a long time for Latin to completely usurp galatian, which was viewed as a barabaric language by the Latin speaking elite. The reason that the Brythonic languages survived is simply because the Romans were not here long enough and perhaps with some exceptions of the iceni and the silurians Britain pretty much accepted their fate. Britain was invaded by the Romans after the peak of the Roman empire and most of Britain after witnessing the relatively simple defeat and destruction of Gaul and the Belgae by Julius Caesar would have been mindful that resistance to the Romans would have been met with no mercy, whereas the Romans would be benevolent to those who accepted what was coming.

In my mind you can imagine parallel British and Roman societies in Roman times - acceptance of the Romans, who had controlled trade in the Mediterranean for centuries and now controlled the rest of Northern Europe, meant that trade was only possible with the will of the Roman Empire. The Romans were very hierarchical and it served their purpose for the elite and easiest to control to be Latin speaking and I can’t see how or why they would have been overly concerned about the language that the plebs used.

It also suited the Romans that Britain was dependant on Rome for military support - this is the way they had grown their empire in the first place, so that when the Romans left, they left a country that was very weak militarily and open for attack. It was almost inevitable that Britain would be invaded after the withdrawal of the Romans, but according to Gildas the first attempts by invasion from the Saxons was repelled and they didn’t return for another century - something corroborated by the writings of Bede.

It is unlikely that the invaders to Britain annihilated all and everything that they conquered - it is far more likely that plagues and diseases over the following millenia killed far more people than any conflicts. As for genetics that is totally misleading - we are all Europeans and although the 19th and 20th century was full of people trying to show distinct European races, that is simply bonkers. We have had very diverse cultures and isolation/migration paths have lead to some genetic differences that give some genes more dominance in some parts of Europe than in others, but nothing to be regarded as of any real significance. In my mind culture, traditions and language are far more influential on our societies than our genetic make-up.

The use of the words Keltae was used by the gauls to describe their language - at least according to Julius Caesar - someone who in his words seemed to have singly handedly conquered Europe killing thousands of people with his bare hands.

Julius Caesar’s legacy was the ending of Celtic domination of civilisation and culture in North Western Europe, but it wasn’t complete and lived on in Armorica, Western Britain, Scotland and Ireland as it does today.

The celtic languages alomst certainly go back to the bronze age, when it would have been an indo-european dialect. Luckily the legacy stills lives on in the Brythonic and Goedelic languages and celtic traditions - albeit that many of those were reinvented by some romantic individuals in the Victorian era.

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The way in which the underlying grammar of English may have been affected by Welsh (eg whether the extensive use of ‘do’ was ‘natural’ or affected in this way) has been discussed before on this site, actually. You’ll find it’s something other people actually know a little about.
Not the most interesting subject, but a few of us poor drudges are boring enough to enjoy reading stuff about it!

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Nothing wrong with that - none of us are! (So far as I know!) Always good to hear ideas from anyone though - yours are not worth any less than anyone else’s.

It was coined by Edward Lhuyd to cover the language group he was (very effectively!) proposing, who had a remarkably scientific mind, and was anything but a Romantic (which is probably why his works had surprisingly little influence…)

[As I’ve said that, I might as well say this -

I’m sure Anthonay Cusack doesn’t need me to speak for him, so just to say It’s a well known theory, I’m surprised you haven’t heard of it. Anthony Cusack goes much further than I would be convinced by, and the language may not have been ultimately affected at all by the influx of the Belgae, we can’t be sure with the limited evidence! But the theory is certainly out there if you have a look for it.]

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Hang on a minute there, where did you hear/learn/discover that? I have never heard it. I know the Romans ended up bribing some Saxons to keep the others away by giving them some rights in certain east coast ports. When the Legions had gone, those folk promptly demanded all sorts from the local British leader and ended up grabbing what they wanted and inviting their friends to follow!
I know of Saxons, Angles, Jutes and Danes. Kent, I believe was Jutish. But Belgic???
I suppose this Forum isn’t really the right place to discuss 5th Century Britain, but…?
Oh, wait a minute… you are saying we were not ever in the east!! That, I really have seen no mention of! That isn’t 5th Century that’s 1st Century or earlier!!

Again, I’m sure Anthony Cusack doesn’t need me to answer, so just my tuppence on the matter, and he sounds like he will have interesting things to say.
Some Belgae came to Britain in some form before the Romans - what language(s) they spoke on the continent is a matter of some debate. Celtic similar to British, Celtic similar to Gaulish, a different form of Celtic, Celtic influenced by other languages, many theories in the mainstream, and a few fringe ones.
How many came to Britain, when, why, over what period, in what way, in what social groups, and how this affected the language spoken in Britain is a matter for educated guesses.
According to the Romans, the British spoke of the influx of the Belgae settling the coast in their traditions, and archaeological evidence backs it up as happening - I think - a century or two BC.
Basically, it was different peoples moving about, which happened a lot in those days.
[edit- so what Anthony Cusack said was a perfectly reasonable and widespread theory backed up by plenty of evidence.]

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Diolch Owain! My lack of full knowledge strikes again! Never learned much about the east of Britain…my sights were firmly to the west! But I get the impression we were all able to exchange conversations as well as throw things at each other by the time the Romans actually managed a proper landing, so any Belgic folk probably just spoke Gaulish with an accent!!! (Like Prydeinig with an accent!)

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Well that’s a permanent state with me! :relaxed:

I have zero expertise here as well, but the only links I have ever seen to examples of things in a Belgic language are via the links to St Jerome in the 4th century, who said that the Galatians in Anatolia spoke virtually the same language as the Treveri - a belgic tribe, debateably belgae from Trier. There are recorded names in Galatian and those have been interpretated by some to give a flavour for the language that might have been used there, showing celtic roots and by implication an idea of the language in Trier. Examples that are often shown are names like Brogamaros and equating these to Irish, Gaullic and Welsh cognates, like Bro and maros, meur, mawr etc.

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If my memory serves me right, in De Bello Gallico, the reason for Caesar’s invasion of Brittania were the frequent visits of British tribes into the regions of the Belgae, to whom they are closely related, making it hard for Caesar to control that part of Gallia. I am not quoting verbatim, mind!

Aha, some Googling: Commentarii De Bello Gallico, Book 5, Chapter 12:
The interior portion of Britain is inhabited by those of whom they say that it is handed down by tradition that they were born in the island itself: the maritime portion by those who had passed over from the country of the Belgae for the purpose of plunder and making war; almost all of whom are called by the names of those states from which being sprung they went thither, and having waged war, continued there and began to cultivate the lands. The number of the people is countless, and their buildings exceedingly numerous, for the most part very like those of the Gauls: the number of cattle is great. They use either brass or iron rings, determined at a certain weight, as their money. (trans. W. A. McDevitte and W. S. Bohn.)

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If I remember correctly (same boat as you!) they had pre-Roman conquest coins Celtic coins as well, which again linked them to those over the channel.

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I think some call them proto currencies - the La Tene and maybe Halstatt supposedly used items such as that for currency

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oh, absolutely - I’m talking about the coins the continental Celts used pre-Roman conquest, minted and based on Greek/Roman designs.

Ah, quick googling so not particularly impressive sources -“A large amount of middle second century BC coinage (Gallo-Belgic A) that has been attributed to the Ambiani tribe has been discovered in parts of southern Britain. While this may be due only to trading connections, it may also be due to Ambiani settlers in the territory.”

That is consistent with Caesar’s allegations…

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They probably had those weapons of mass destruction too, then…

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The suessiones come as the big Belgae tribe in my searches - ruling most of Britain in some accounts. I have read things about the Belgae and stonehenge - not sure if that was victoriana nonsense

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Interesting! Thanks!

Re Belgae and Stonehenge, as you say, it does sound like nonsense, doesn’t it! Even William Stukeley in the 18th century talks about Stonehenge as having been “in the hands of the Belgae, who built it not”.

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