I suppose it’s just like the letter ‘R’ in that it can sound very different from person to person. I’ve even heard some people (Dai from Pobol y Cwm for one and maybe Tudur Owen too) ‘rolling’ the ‘LL’ sound which is quite something. As long as you’re understood I don’t think anyone would even comment.
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Yes! I have a very difficult time trilling my “r” sound (which I know is not over-accentuated in all Welsh dialects). I could never do this for Spanish either. It feels like my tongue just isn’t limber enough. It gets stuck or goes limp instead of flapping. Is there any sort of exercise I could do to work on this?
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Actually I’ve always had the same problem and my rolled r is still very much hit-and-miss so we’ll both have to wait for for someone else to post an exercise for that!
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My wife (Glenda) and I think a bit like an English R, but push your tongue slightly against the pallet. So the tip goes up a bit and the mid part does down a bit. A bit like the LL but make an rrr sound and don’t move your tongue back ar open your mouth more as in the English Ra. So Short RR for a tapped R and longer for trilled rrrrrr 
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Can you do the brum brum noise one would make when playing with toy cars? Silly question I know, but it’s the same thing in practice.
Rolling 'r’s is basically the tip of your tongue vibrating against the alveolar ridge on the roof of your mouth because of the air you force past it, along with a humming/vibrating noise from your throat/vocal chords.
It’s difficult to explain and is something which definitely comes with practice. I’ll see if I can find any links on the Internet…
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OK, this seems to explain it quite well…
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Not sure if she is doing N or S course. But Iestyn pronounces Wythnos Awthnos rather than Oithnos.
Ah, I see. That would explain it. Awthnos (awth as in author + noss) is just as correct as oithnos.
Some words do have regional variations, and the thing is every variation is correct. Where there are different ways of pronouncing a word, the best advice is to go with the one you remember or find easier to say (even if it doesn’t sound exactly like the one the person you are listening/speaking to is using) because as long as it’s one of the ways of pronouncing it correctly, it will never be wrong.
May I ask if you speak northern or southern Welsh Siaron?
I ask because I’ve often wondered if there is a subtle difference between the way these are pronounced between north and south.
I’m aware of the pronunciation that you convey in your excellent example above, but I’ve often thought I’ve heard it slightly differently from northern speakers (e.g. on Rownd a Rownd, e.g. in the word “hwyl”).
However, sometimes I’m convinced there is a basic difference, and at other times I’m convinced there isn’t! I realise that we are definitely in “paid a phoeni” territory here, but even so, since we are on this subject, I’d be interested in opinions.
Well the answer isn’t quite as simple as North or South, I’m afraid. I use Northern forms, as the bulk of my Welsh speaking has been here in the North (so I say isio rather than eisiau or moyn, mae gen i rather than mae gyda fi, and fo rather than fe, for example), but I started learning while I was still in the South and also did 4 years in the middle at Aberystwyth. All of which was very pre-SSiW. My natural accent in English is a mix of South Wales, Herefordshire and Forest of Dean which doesn’t help either! ;-). All that means that my Welsh is a bit of a mish-mash - some words still come out with a more Southern pronounciation, and some with a more Northern one.
There is a subtle difference with some words - actually there are some subtle-as-a-brick differences too - and I must admit sometimes I can’t even remember whether I am using a Southern or a Northern variation! For instance, pethau can be peth-eye, peth-er, peth-ah, but I honestly can’t tell you which belongs in which part of Wales without looking it up!
The wy sound, particularly because it is a combination of vowels, does get pronounced differently. For example, you’ll hear the name Myfanwy said (sung!) with an oi sound at the end or a we sound at the end. However, debygrwydd is, I’m pretty sure, always the oi sound, but in gwyddfid (honeysuckle) the wy is a ‘wi’ (as in with).
Now might be a good time to say that although I started and named this thread, I wouldn’t say I have all the answers - just thought it would be a handy single place to collect tips and exercises for awkward sounds - so everyone’s input is very welcome! 
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As that just happens to be my name… 
I say it with a very slight emphasis on the “oo” sound as it slides into the “ee,” but not a flat “weee.” Another Myfanwy I know says it without any “ee” sound at all, just the “oo.”
The only thing that really bothers me is when people call me “Muh-FFAWN-ee” (“ffawn” as in “a baby deer”). Americans are notoriously bad with names in other languages. You ought to hear us trying to pronounce the athletes’ names during the Olympics!
Just for curiousity’s sake: is there a peculiarly Gog or De or Gorllewin way to pronounce Myfanwy?
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The one I always end up saying to people is the CH sound.
I find that everyone I speak to can be sorted out by doing this.
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Write down “The Loch Ness Monster”
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Get them to say it out loud.
99% of people get it right. -
Tell them that the closing sound in “Loch” is identical to our CH.
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Write down “Johann Bach” (The piano guy!)
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Get them to say it out loud.
99% of people get it right. -
Tell them that the closing sound in Bach is identical to our CH!
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Why?
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Because Bach is our word!
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Spend the next half hour trying to convince them that Johann Bach was named so because he was so small.
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Yes! I was trying to think of a way to describe the difference, and tapped vs trilled is exactly it.
Trilled: rrrrrrrrrr
Tapped: say “uhr… uhr… uhr,” with just a single tap of the tip of your tongue on the roof of your mouth behind your teeth (what Catrin describes as the alveolar ridge. You’ll feel it if you poke around a bit).
If it comes out voiced as “uhr-uh… uhr-uh… uhr-uh,” it’s plenty close enough; in fact, that would be a good start. You’ll learn to cut the extra “uh” off later as the sound and the sensation of tapping the R become more familiar.
Catrin often taps her Rs, especially in words like trio and drio, and I would imagine that a tapped R in place of a trilled one wouldn’t raise a single eyebrow. I think the point is for it not to be a “cupped” R as is usual in English, and which sounds very different.
@siaronjames I don’t think I’ve come across any other phrases with “yn ôl” in them yet. I can do the “wyth” part of “wythnos yn ôl” but the “nos yn ôl” part gets my tongue in a knot. It’s not helped by not being totally sure what sounds I’m hearing when “wythnos yn ôl” comes up in the lessons.
I’m doing the Southern version.
Phonetically in English noss-uh-nawl, if that helps.
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Maybe a trick here is to say it as one word even though you know it’s three words, and you’ll recognise it written down. In speech words tend to nudge up together anyway - we do it in our first languages pretty subconsciously, so it won’t sound wrong.
Craig’s kinda done that in his phonetic spelling above, so use that to practice “nos yn ôl” then to build on that and to thow in some variations, try saying these, starting off slowly and then speeding up:
(I’m going to write them in Welsh rather than phonetically and arranged for speaking practice so they’ll look a bit strange, - the bits in bold are where the stress goes)
Wyth nos-y-nôl (a week ago/last week)
Py thef nos-y-nôl (a fortnight ago)
Pen wyth nos-y-nôl (a weekend ago)
Hope that helps (and hope the way I’ve written it isn’t too confusing)
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I am clearly thick. I have always pronouned wythnos and Myfanwy as oo-i-thnos and Muh-vanooi, not ahi or oi!!
Nah, no thickness there. That’s what I say, and I own the name.
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