Is Oswestry Welsh?

Welsh General / Questions
#102

Imagine a spelling test on this lot if your learning English as a second language:

a Fair, a Fare, Affair, a Pharaoh, a Faroe islander and a Ferrous material.

English spelling must be really hard to learn as an adult.

#103

True, but matching spelling to sounds isn’t the only aspect of spelling.

I mean, it is actually quite useful to be able to distinguish in writing a fair and a fare (for example).

And fare is related to “farewell” = “fare well” = travel well (safely), harking back to English’s Germanic roots (cf. fahren - to travel). so if some tidy-minded person made us change “fare” to “fair” because they sound the same, then we would lose that historical & linguistic connection.

(BTW, in my personal pronunciation, the “e” sound in “ferrous” is quite distinct from the vowel sound after the “f” (or “ph”) in the other words). And “ferrous” is from Latin (ferrum - iron), so Europeans shouldn’t have much trouble with it).

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#104

Yes, I was pushing it a bit with the ferrous which to me as well has a slightly different sound, but quite close and you are right reading would be tricky, if not impossible - maybe that’s why I find the phonetic spelling of English borrowings in Welsh novels quite tricky and have to read the spoken bits in my head.

#105

That is true. The ‘s’ sound faded and dropped before a consonant, and the circumflex often marks that.

#106

Oi! I like my ß thank you. My surname wouldn’t be the same without it. :wink:

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#107

:grin:

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#108

I’ve actually seen it used occasionally in older English printed books - it makes words like “busineß” look quite odd :slight_smile:

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#109

Wow. How old are we talking here? I bought a really big (900 pages) and really interesting book in Cambridge last week from 1887 but I’ve not seen any in there.

#110

I’m not sure – it was in a library that I no longer have access to, but I’d have guessed late 1700s. However, I looked it up on Wikipedia, and it seems there’s quite a history to it – in English here, but also available in German or Welsh/Cymraeg if you’re feeling brave :slight_smile:

#111

The ‘s’ sound faded and dropped before a consonant, and the circumflex often marks that.

The e acute sometimes has a similar “origin” also in French, as in Ă©cole (cf ysgol. school); Ă©ternuer (cf sternutation, the medical term for sneezing); Ă©tonnĂ© (cf astonished) 
 and many others.

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#112

One of my favourites: Ă©pervier = sparrowhawk – basically “sparrower” plus a couple of sound-changes.

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#113

Yes indeed - for some reason they usually use the e acute at the start of a word with a dropped s, and a circumflex in the middle of a word. Though there are exceptions, of course: ĂȘtre !

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#114

That certificate must be pretty rare, Tricia, unless I’m mistaken. Maybe the National Library of Wales would appreciate a photocopy?

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#115

Thank you. I have never been to the library so your idea will spur me on to visit and take a copy with me in case they’re interested. I also want to research some family history.

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#116

In Croesoswallt / Oswestry.

There are still plenty of Welsh language gatherings for things like theatre groups etc 
gyda llaw

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#117

I sometimes hear Welsh in the streets and shops of Oswestry. I chatted in Welsh to a shopkeeper the other day in what used to be Martin Britton’s. Shows that it’s worth making the first scary move and addressing someone in Welsh, in case you get a pleasant surprise!

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#118
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