Taking the plunge

Hanterkans! :grinning: In fact, even in Cornish dialect (i.e. English as traditionally spoken in Cornwall) itā€™s standard to refer to fifty as ā€œhalf a hundredā€.

As far as Iā€™m aware, the new system was designed to prevent the use of English numbers, which was already happening.

I read some serious research a few years ago that said, yes, it most definitely does help with maths.

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Having taught maths to very young primary children in English, I can vouch for the fact that ANYTHING that makes the Base 10 number system more obvious to them is a bonus! Some could see it straight away, but for others having numbers called twelve and thirteen just didnā€™t make it easy for them to understand. One ten and two would have been a lot better!

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Thereā€™s an excellent insight into the two number systems and how they came about in Gareth Ffowc Robertsā€™ ā€œMae Pawb yn Cyfrifā€ (also available in English under the title ā€œCount Us Inā€) - but itā€™s rather too long to explain here! It might be available in libraries to borrow - itā€™s certainly available in various well-known online stores to buy!

(no, Iā€™m not on commission, I was just very impressed with the book!)

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Yes. The research looked at maths absorption in far eastern cultures that use relatively simple and logical numbering systems very akin to the ā€˜newā€™ Welsh system, and they found that children ā€˜getā€™ numbers and the relationship between them (that is to say they internalise them so they donā€™t have to think about them) much quicker than first language English speakers.

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It may well work in that respect, but engineering such a fundamental part of the language, something that has persisted for at least one millenia, has always felt wrong to me.

Kids will invariably use eleven, twelve, thirteen, because the words flow better as the pronunciation edges have been knocked off through use - as have the old Welsh numbers and many teachers and assistants in my area will prefer the English numbers as well, which to me negates many of the benefits.

I canā€™t imagine anything other than soixante dix neuf or quatre vingt dix huit in French and they produce some of the worlds best engineers, because or maybe in spite of that.

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I canā€™t imagine anything other than soixante dix neuf or quatre vingt dix huit in French

I guess you havenā€™t visited Quebec, Belgium or Switzerland then where ā€œseptanteā€ and ā€œnonanteā€ are widely (even exclusively) used. All three produce excellent engineers, BTW

I was going to say, thatā€™s all very well to make maths easier for really young kids, but then how far do we go in ironing out all the irregularities and peculiarities and quirks of a language to make it ā€œeasierā€? You could eliminate all the inconsistencies in English spelling and grammar as well as in the counting system (and eleven and twelve are really the only totally inconsistent names for numbers that we have) ā€” but although what youā€™d be left with might be ā€œeasier to learnā€, one could argue it wouldnā€™t be English any more. Same goes for Welsh or Cornish or any other language thatā€™s been shaped by centuries of being spoken by human beings. :worried:

That said, I can see the case for switching to a base 10 system in Cornish as well ā€” one could argue that a revived language wonā€™t be taken seriously in the modern world, especially in science and technology fields, if the counting system sounds like itā€™s stuck in the eighteenth century. But I donā€™t think itā€™d be a good idea to drop the old system entirely. Or else what else should we get rid of to make it ā€œeasierā€ ā€” mutations, or the other quirks of grammar that happen not to be the same as English? Kernewek at least has already been killed off once without us doing it againā€¦

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Actually, thatā€™s an education thing - and itā€™s much more that the older generation will count in English - kids whoā€™ve been through Welsh medium education are much more likely to use Welsh numbersā€¦ :slight_smile:

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If I had Ā£1 14s 3d 3 farthings for all the dozens or scores or even gross of times Iā€™d heard nostalgia for our ā€œgood oldā€ numbers and units, Iā€™d have more than Ā£231 18s 7 1/4d. :laughing:

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Meanwhile, this is all a bit rich coming from a country (the UK as a whole, I mean) where everyone still measures in miles, if not feet and inches as well, while the rest of us (except the US of course) went 100% metric decades and decades agoā€¦ :slight_smile:

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I would like to debate this one further, but I sense itā€™s a really sensitive issue with strong differences of opinion and happy to let it go - I feel strongly, but donā€™t want to risk getting banned for a difference of opinion on numbers.

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donā€™t want to risk getting banned for a difference of opinion

Thatā€™s never going to happen, cyfaill. This forum thrives on exchanges of opinion expressed in a friendly and respectful manner. :smile:

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Whatā€™s ā€œcyfaillā€, out of interest? Iā€™m guessing it might be a cognate of ā€œkowethā€, which is ā€œfriendā€ in Cornish. (Or else possibly ā€œkyfeythā€, which is ā€œjamā€ā€¦ :yum: )

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As you guessed, ā€œcyfaillā€ means friend - plural ā€œcyfeillionā€. There may be a subtle difference between ā€œffrindā€ and ā€œcyfaillā€, but Iā€™m not fluent enough to know. :smile:

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Back on topic, Iā€™ve just started Level 1 Challenge 2ā€¦ is it just me, or is there far less time being given for my answers in this one? Iā€™ve only learned one new word so far (in the first couple of minutes) and can remember most of what I learned in Challenge 1 ā€” Iā€™m sure Iā€™m answering at about the speed Iā€™d got up to before ā€” but Catrin keeps interrupting before Iā€™ve finished. :dizzy_face:

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Catrin keeps interrupting before Iā€™ve finished

Yeah, she keeps doing that. :laughing:
Although Iā€™m working with the Southern course, Iā€™m very familiar with the Northern challenges and recognise what youā€™re describing very well. From my own experience, it will become easier as you press on. Dal ati. :smile: Others may have more specific and helpful advice.

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Well, I can always use the pause button a bit moreā€¦ :slight_smile: Whatā€™s ā€œdal atiā€? ā€œStillā€¦ā€ ā€” Iā€™m guessing something like ā€œkeep goingā€?

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Right again! :smile: - ā€œkeep goingā€ or ā€œkeep at itā€.

I have to confess that I am breaking the forum rule of writing in English (except in the dedicated Welsh thread) or providing a translation. My excuse is that the context has made it easy to guess the meaning - as you have ably confirmed. :smile:

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My a vynnā€™sa skrifa taklow yn Kernewek ynwedh, mesā€¦ the same as youā€™ve written above. :wink:

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