The Welsh Government want your opinion

I was just coming to the same conclusion while reading your post, and this sentence took the words out of my mind! Spooky! :slight_smile:

Seriously though, economics is a great driver (not the same as being materialistic, in my view … more like being realistic).

A little hobby horse of mine is arbitrary targets (not just in this, but in any public endeavour).
What is special about 1 million except that it is a nice round number?
The real target is 100% in my opinion. Ambitious, yes, but you could fail to reach that, and still reach 1 million, so why not?

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Bore da.
Just to add an additional comment vis a vis ‘marketing’ of Welsh teaching in schools: the benefits of bilingualism (or more) has by now been well researched and documented. In Wales we have an excellent opportunity to give our children this head start in development.
Parents need to know about such benefits so that they can encourage a positive attitude to the use of Welsh at an early age in both schools and at home.

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The rapid growth of Duolingo would suggest a latent interest in the language around the world. £120000 people in the US have been attracted to learning something of the language in little more than six months and interest in the language leads to curiosity about the country. The same has happened here so increasing the profile of the language outside Wales could lead to export and tourist opportunities not to mention a potential new outlet for authors and writers.

I really think that increasing knowledge and access to the language outside Wales will strengthen the language and increase pride in the language here in Wales and be beneficial to the economy.

Just to say, when I sent my response to the Government on line, I had awful trouble and lost what I was trying to send once. It seemed to work in the end, although I thought it promised an e-mail acknowledgement which I did not get. Has anyone else had problems or is it my laptop blinking again?

A lot of money is spent on evening classes and having done classroom based learning in other languages I’m sceptical that many people gain much proficiency through them as the progress is galatial at times. I think they should be radically altered with a much bigger expectation that people put more of their own time outside of class into learning and using the classes as support rather than the primary means of learning. The classes could use resources such as SSiW and/or computerized learning system that people systematically work through and are expected to keep pace then once or twice a week they come into class to practice what they have learn’t with others and gain further support. This system would also be supported by tutors that people would have access to online outside of class. By making things more intensive like SSiW I think the results would be much better. I dread to think how much money is wasted on evening classes, leaving people thinking that they are no good at learning languages, where in reality the odds were stacked against them because of the poor learning method they were presented with.

There are a lot of highly educated people that put together these class based courses who could learn a lot from much less educated people who actually learn multiple languages with relative ease. I will never forget a conversation between some Pakistani friends of mine who each spoke half-a-dozen languages and an Indian-Mauritian friend who could only speak French and English. The Mauritian guy was learning Hindi using a teach yourself book and from what I could tell he seemed to be making good progress, but he never spoke it to anyone. The Pakistani guys couldn’t understand why he never tried it with them. They were saying that he just had to speak it with one saying something along the lines of “you’ll say something, we’ll laugh, you’ll laugh and then we’ll work out what you mean.” From what I could tell learning a language was just a big game for them not something they took seriously. It seemed to consist of lots of gesturing, pulling faces, laughing and not worrying. Looking back at it now that I have children, it’s much the same way that children learn. One slight difficulty with Welsh is that for most learners there is the temptation to revert to English rather than try to get the point across if they aren’t 100% sure how to say something in Welsh. One answer to this in a class setting could be to have activities that have to be completed using only Welsh so that people are forced to find a way to get across what they mean with the Welsh they have. I know that there are some immersion classes, but I think they are in the minority.

One other thing that I would really like to see is the choice to have welsh sub-titles for Welsh language programmes on iplayer. Often I think I have nearly caught what someone is saying but with the support of Welsh sub-titles I think that would really aid progress. There are some great programmes on S4C, it would be great if they could be promoted more to non-Welsh speakers using the English sub-titles. I think that would help people feel more connected to the Welsh language and may inspire more people to learn it. This would also increase the money available which could intern help raise standards.

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I have already submitted my response to the Senedd, but I was reading @LawrenceWoodman’s comments and thought of cariad@iaith on TV and the learning methods they use. They are not quite the same as SSiW but seem similar but tailored for a class environment. IoanTalfryn could surely advise on the subject of teaching adults in ways which work and are fun, and children surely already learn… well in Primary or Playgroup surely its all fun? Not grammar or lists of words to learn or reading Taliesin? (Not that reading Taliesin isn’t lovely, just not at age 5!).
Can someone who has yet to comment to the Government maybe mention this sort of thing? @aran, as an expert, what do you think?

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@henddraig I had forgotten about cariad@iaith which seemed great from what I have seen of it. One thing I think that could have been better from what I have seen of that method used elsewhere is for them to have created human personas and not animal. A few times throughout the course I felt they were a bit uncomfortable with their animal persona, where a human one would have been more natural. I also think that because so much of it was based around this animal theme that a lot of the language used would have given them confidence in that setting but left them less confident trying to get their words out in a shop, for example, with a queue forming behind them. At that point I don’t think imagining themselves as a timid hedgehog creeping around in a forest would be the mindset they need. I watched a few episodes a while ago, but tired of this theme. I don’t know if it was continued or not. Otherwise a great method that I think could just do with a bit of tweaking.

I’m not sure I even watched all that series. Most of the others did not, I seem to recall, involve imagining you were a hedgehog, although it’s some time since I watched them. I think they were trying to make the programs different for the TV audience, so came up with all sorts of ideas. Certainly human personas were used in more than one series, I think! The basic point was to have a lot of repetition so words were rammed into memories, This was followed by activities to use Cymraeg outside the classroom. It might not be practicable for most evening classes to decamp to the local pub and practice serving behind the bar or collecting glasses, but some ideas might work!

I’m glad you replied @henddraig, I’ve just checked and your right; from a quick look through youtube it was only that one series that used that theme. I was just unlucky that it was that particular series I came across. I think I’ll have a look through the others now.

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:smile:

The things you sometimes overhear…

Another issue I have with the Welsh for adults programme is that the out of classroom opportunities only run during term time and are 90% of the time during working hours.
The more intensive programmes they run are 2-4 weeks long and entirely working hours based.
The only group this appears to target are the retired.

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There are some great suggestions on here.

Coincidentally, I was thinking along the lines of something Aran has mentioned, a kind of ‘Dydd Cymraeg’: am not sure about the frequency of the event, but it could take the form of like Aran said: where people are encouraged to give a basic salutation…and for fluent speakers to really promote themselves in the lines of work they do e.g. in a supermarket, make it prominent that the employees who speak Welsh are equally identifiable, and encouraged to use Cymraeg. Also pipe through a bit of contemporary Welsh music in the background as well, where the line of work enables it?

There was also reference made on here to using successes where they have happened globally (e.g. any successes basque country or bilingual schooling in Ireland), which Ithink is good information to draw on.

My other point is the identification of the Welsh learner…and administering encouragement as much as possible! It is likely that your typical adult Welsh Learner is someone who generally has strong personal reasons for learning, or coming back to learning the language - be it identifying with personal cultural reasons, the heritage itself of the language, the challenge of a new language, nostalgia, whatever. And with these reasons invariably comes a desire to see the language flourish.

A look at the messages on this thread (and the forum as a whole) is a good example: the energy and the initiative that accompany a lot of the postings I see and the effort that people have put in when it comes to learning and promoting the language is brilliant (e.g. the effort that people made in arranging to meet at the eisteddfod and to identify themselves)- makes me feel guilty in that I usually manage only a posting about once a month on here! Bilingual schooling provides a good foundation; but when being schooled in the language as part of a curriculum, I feel that learners at a young age would likely approach the language differently when compared to the adult welsh learner: someone who has come to the language later and with the different feelings and strong motivations toward it that I alluded to above. So, I would say that identifying the adult learners who have come forward to learn the language, and then retaining and encouraging them on the learner journey is invaluable: a potential for real energy and direction to be tapped into.

As a follow on: perhaps a ‘ddyd dysgwr’, encouraging Welsh learners to display their ‘learner status’ more often (I intend to buy a T-shirt from the SSiW website to this effect!)…and in turn encouraging any Welsh speakers to come forward and initiate a welcoming ‘s’mae!’…and take it from there?

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This is 100%, the reason that most people like myself have never been to one. Basically for over 30s, learning has to be in short snippets on-line here and there - to fit personal lives. It has to be something that can be done during a commute to and from work. It has to be in those brief daily contacts with people in Post Offices, supermarkets and the local general shop round the corner - also after about eight at night down the pub and in restaurants or where people take their kids to play or dogs to walk…

These are the sorts of constraints for most people and we have to work out how to deliver something within those constraints - SSIW does fortunately work in short blasts here and there - without SSIW I would not have been able to contemplate learning Welsh as an adult. Radio Cymru works, music works - Skype is a bit awkward for me, but works for many. We need bite-sized, stuff - the language equivalent of fast-food and coffee on the go. Also we need it on English TV as well as S4C.

All these have happened and I think most people know these things, but we just need more and more of it. Also it should be challenging, to get that sense of achievement and it has to be fun.

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Wales itself is a project grounded in the Welsh language.

Wales’s present political manifestation has no prior modern antecedence. Wales was a part of England effectively until the Assembly only being recognised at all since absorption in Tudor times first by the translation of the Bible into Welsh, to help ensure the Reformation in Wales and help keep the back door into England firmly closed and then as a special entity again at the end of the nineteenth century in the act establishing Welsh grammar schools.
Apart from religious and sporting affiliations all parts of Wales connect West to East and never North to South. The idea there is in reality an entity called the Welsh economy is an absurd fiction as South East Wales connects commercially and even socially with the West of England and North Wales with Manchester and Liverpool. Ideally transport links North and South might help create a real connexion between North and South and the growth of social media may also achieve this. This disconnect geographical, economic, social and linguistic together with the porousness of the border with England together with disinterest and apathy are the enemies of the project 2050.

Attempts to bring languages back from the brink of extinction have almost always failed as projects. Only Hebrew for very special reasons has been wholly successful but Welsh has been hailed as a language in recovery. This recovery is fragile and setting a target is a useful way of focussing minds. It has two elements firstly language acquisition but as important is keeping and making Welsh a language of everyday life.

The halt in the decline of the language is a substantial achievement and the target of a million speakers by 2050 is admirable but needs detailed specification and support. Broadly speaking it seems Welsh is being successful outside Wales, in parts of Wales where it was previously in steep decline or hardly existed ,but is having problems in several of the older heartlands where in migration as a result of differential house prices in attractive rural and coastal areas has a most worrying negative effect and if not dealt with will destroy the places where Welsh has traditionally been the language of everyday life.

As the planning system has been used to protect the natural and physical environment so consideration of its use to protect the linguistic environment before it is too late and the heartlands are lost with inevitable consequences for Welsh in traditional areas. There are obviously substantial objections to such a policy in a Liberal democracy and changes need to be very fine tuned and properly argued for and executed. In Wales there is this special important lingusitic twist to the distortion of the housing market by incomers with deep pockets mainly from the South East of England. .

On the other hand Welsh is already a world language. At the moment the number of speakers beyond Wales is unknown but substantial. Over 50,000 first language speakers perhaps 100,000 Also Welsh is the oldest language in Great Britain and after Basque one of the oldest in Europe.It is part of a heritage of other Britons. Welsh people are and will probably be geographically mobile globally and support for the language, by whatever means, really needs to look beyond Wales itself. Within the time frame suggested Education could successively migrate to the internet and consideration should be given to a complete Welsh learning packages adaptable for children and adults to learn and improve their knowledge of Welsh and available worldwide.

Need and opportunity are the factors facilitating language acquisition. Perception of need is influenced by many factors. In countries like Wales and Sweden where everyone will inevitably become fluent in English certain elements of perception and self worth are crucial.

Perception of the importance and status of the language can be overtly and subliminally reinforced by minor changes to the physical environment. Public sector signage has already made a difference but serious consideration should be given to a policy of enforcing bi lingual signage in the private sector too in stages completed by 2050.

Whilst Welsh language education has produced cohort of speakers it is often the case that children revert to English outside the school gates and after school. Consideration to how Welsh can improve its image amongst young people as something ‘cool’. As youth culture is generally counter culture by nature it maybe beyond the scope of policy to encourage it or is it? Making it possible to use Welsh in all sitiations should be aimed at.

Welsh is not an easy language for less able children coming from English speaking homes especially in predominently English areas. Care must be taken that they are sufficiently supported to ensure they are not suffering as a result of their parent’s choice. The choice of sending children to Welsh schools is a status as well as a patriotic choice.

Further are there any way Welsh ex pats and people in remote areas can have their children educated in boarding schools in Wales?

The majority of Citizens in Wales will still be predominantly English speakers and it is crucial to maintain and enhance the support of this group for the Welsh language and ensure that their education is of the highest standard and also gives Welsh and the history and culture of Wales its due.

There are still a group of articulate people who oppose the revival of the Welsh language on the grounds that it imposes unnecessary costs and is socially divisive. It is important to show that supporting the Welsh language needn’t involve a gravy train of self appointed Taffia or be socially divisive.

So it is also vitally important to provide appropriate top quality Welsh language education in Schools where English is the principle medium of instruction. Reasonable competence in Welsh must be the right of all in Wales.THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING OF ALL . Welsh cannot be seen and taught as if it were a foreign language and it should be clearly connected with Welsh history and culture including, of course, the Anglo Welsh tradition. . The model for changes in Education in Wales might be Finland which has both Swedish and Finnish speaking areas and where all teachers are at least educated to master’s level. Finland is reputed to produce the best educated population in Europe.Wales should aspire for master level entry to the teaching profession asap.
Communicative competence in spoken Welsh rather than mastering grammar rules should be the thrust of learning Welsh in English medium schools. Also all teachers in Wales of all subjects with rare exception should be expected to be confident and to always use Welsh as a natural and normal part of classroom management in all subjects and Welsh should normally be the meta language in Welsh lessons.

A test of the success of Welsh learning in non Welsh language schools would be that pupils could fairly comfortably transfer to Welsh language schools at early stages of their education with little or no futher induction.

Whilst Non Welsh speaking parents may wish to support and monitor their children in a Welsh language school by learning the language and others may wish to claim their cultural inheritance the pyramid of adult learners where few starters get to level Uwch is concerning and the approach needs rethinking. Connecting face to face learning with a fully on line system and encouraging fluent Welsh speakers to learn how to usefully support new speakers is necessary. Some slogan such as ‘There is no such thing as bad Welsh’ needs to be inculcated to adult learners and native speakers alike.

Finally a short sample module on Wales and the Welsh language should be made for inclusion in the syllabus of all schools in the UK outside Wales to give people outsideWales a better picture of the language and to enhance its status in the rest of the UK…

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This I couldn’t agree with more! Last night I went to meet my fiancée and a friend of hers. They both started the conversation with me in English. Once we got home she said “Roedd hi’n edrych ymlaen at siarad 'da ti yn Gymraeg”. The reason they didn’t start the conversation was they were trying to be polite. My fiancée doesn’t use her Welsh (Welsh speaking mother, meithrin, ysgol gynradd and gyfun) is because she doesn’t feel she’s very good at Welsh. A situation that doesn’t concern her with her English. I get fed up when speaking to first language siaradwyr when the correct the Welsh I use because it’s not their dialect. I have a friend who regularly tells me (in English, whilst i’m speaking in Welsh) that I sound like a gog and should try and sound like a “Westy”. These attitudes, as much as I love the people who have them, do not endear the language to the Di-Gymraeg.

A step away from perfect Welsh is essential! I have a tutor at Uwch who regularly emphasises “ar lafar”. We need more tutors like him.

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Thanks for this link! The best bit I found was the Egyptian doctor saying that Welsh is not a difficult language!! That needs to be said more often!! @aran do you agree? Oh, and all the brilliant contributions to this thread, are all the posters actually replying to the Assembly Government, because if not, all they have put on here is wasted!

This is a very good point. There used to be programs on BBC1 Wales sort of challenging celebs to learn a bit of Welsh, but I don’t remember when the last one was. Surely most people who don’t speak Welsh watch BBC not S4C!!! So a version of Cariad@Iaith on the Beeb would be great!
To @raisonper I’ll have to read your contribution again to take it all in, but as far as I got…sad, admitting truth reluctantly, then encouraged…oh, brilliant…could you join the Senedd with special responsibility for the language? :smile:[quote=“raisonper, post:50, topic:5963”]
The model for changes in Education in Wales might be Finland
[/quote]

We have a young lady from Finland on the Forum. @Novem and she is learning Welsh with great success. Her English is excellent. so she seems a perfect example of the success of her country’s Education methods!
To @Novem This is a long thread, but if you have any hints of the best way of increasing the number of Welsh speakers in Wales, go to the top of this thread and you will see the Government wants to know!!

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Great point. This is such an obvious problem with the current provision! And surely something that is relatively easy to change.

maybe. I was also wondering about increasing the amounts of small snippets here and there - normal people talking in Welsh from time to time on the English news, with subtitles perhaps. I have seen news stories where S4C and BBC have interviewed the same person, who speaks in English on BBC news and Welsh on S4C - couldn’t we hear it in Welsh on the BBC with subtitles?? (And not just BBC Wales - BBC news at 10 etc etc.)

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Sorry if this has already been suggested and I’ve missed it…

An obvious way to increase the number of Welsh speakers, would be to increase the number of Welsh medium school places. In North East Wales demand is hugh for a relatively small number of places.

I don’t think there is anything too controversial about this. Demand is there. Perhaps the problem would be finding enough teachers.

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If only that was the case.

Also, when it comes to parents making decisions about schools a lot of factors come into play - where is the school, how far away. Where do the other kids on the street go to. Welsh schools tend to be attractive based on their performance, but that is only a decisive factor if other EM schools close by are very poor, which more often than not is simply not the case. Many people can be faced with a choice between a very good EM school, that is nearby in which they will have friends living in the same street or to send a child five miles away to a WM school in an area they do not know very well and where their child will be different to other kids on the street. As a parent you would have to be very commited to make the second choice and many, many are, but for those where it’s more of a nice to do sort of thing then it will never be a valid option.