Novem is indeed amazing. I am sure that she is right about making some sound, any sound, at once. After all, in conversation, people often start “Er…”
In one of the early lessons I tried using the pause button. Although I said more correct words, I was doing it painfully slowly, and getting slower and slower as I continued. There was a longer and longer period of silence before I said anything. I was trying out various possibilities in my head and choosing between them. That convinced me that the advice to avoid the pause button is good advice. I think that you have to get your mouth moving at once.
On the subject of writing/reading - I do look at the vocabulary after doing a session. I find it hard to discriminate between different sounds. Was it “b” or “v” or “dd”? I can’t tell. It’s the same in English. Was that “very” or “fairly”?
When I read “gwydred neu ddau” the light goes on. Of course! “neu ddau” is “or two” and not some strange new word.
I can hear sounds - hearing tests give me a score typical of someone 40 years younger - but I have never been good at processing them. That’s probably why I don’t like using the phone. Give me e-mail any time. Learning through listening and speaking is out of my comfort zone, but probably very good for me.
Claudia, I am not sure if @tatjana and you have met on the Forum, but she suffered for ages from being ultra-perfectionist, so she may have a few hints for how to shake it off!!
Hi Claudia
An absolute key moment for me was when I realised that no one memorises a whole language-- I stopped trying to remember and just started to listen. It takes so much pressure off and the learning becomes so much more enjoyable and effective.
Diolch yn fawr…thanks a million for your replies, explanations and HUGE help, support and encouragement! You’re angels! And diolch yn fawr for your immense patience…
Yes, perfectionism is indeed such a pain in the neck (often even literally) and takes away all the enthusiasm and joy. It’s so true, learning a new language should be fun and exciting, and not ruled by pressure and the impossible aim for perfection. I’ll put all your great advice into my bag of learning-resources and wisdom, so I can always consult them again, as soon as I’m about to relapse into this overly tense, overly eager, joylessly pedantic perfectionist-mode! 100 trillion synapses - I mean, it’s sheer lunacy not to have faith in these LOT!
Making sounds instead of waiting in silence really helps getting into sort of a flow…
Thank you so much, you all are really, really wonderful!
I don’t know how many synapses remain to me, but I have just done session 23 and counted how many times I gave an answer that vaguely resembled the right one. it came to 47%. I might as well press on to 25 before going back and seeing if I can improve on that. Does it matter that I only got 47%? Not at all. At least I tried. If I had not done it at all then I would have got 0%. At least, that is what I am telling myself.
For someone with a weak working memory, yes, absolutely normal - and it’s part of what makes this approach tougher for people with weak working memory. We’ve seen from the rest of your progress that your general memory functions are fine - but be kind to yourself, because you’re dealing with a weak working memory. That’s why I think it would be fine for you to make more use of the pause button than I generally recommend…
@Betterlatethan Oh, yes, I also think that your score is excellent! I’ve done Challenge 16 yesterday and would have never gotten 47%. I got 3 of 4 answers right, at most…and they were easy and short sentences, repetitions of the very first few Challenges. All other answers consisted of mere fragments of sentences or even only a couple of words I could remember.
@aran I’m glad that you think it’s fine for me to make more use of the pause button than you generally recommend, thank you! I thank God that my sons didn’t inherit my learning impaired brain…you cannot imagine how thankful I am for this!
Please, Claudia, STOP being so hard on yourself - that kind of negative talk is KNOWN to have a negative impact, not just on learning but on all sorts of things…
Your working memory is weaker than usual (but not that that MUCH weaker, or you wouldn’t be able to do a single sentence!). That’s not being learning impaired - it’s more like being short (like me!) or having a limp or something like that. You can work around it - in fact, that’s exactly what you’re successfully doing at the moment.
What REALLY matters is your attitude, your determination, your commitment - and by sticking with an approach which is tougher for you because of your working memory, you’ve shown you’ve got all those qualities in generous amounts. Recognise your courage, recognise what you’re achieving, instead of talking yourself down.
I don’t know whether this will be a helpful suggestion or not, but I’ve tried SSiW twice before (once when it was new and again a few years ago) and couldn’t get on with it at all but have finally found a way to work with it successfully.
The problem is, if I wait until Aran has finished speaking, I often find that I wouldn’t be able to repeat the sentence in English if it’s a long and complicated one, so there’s no way I can remember what I’m supposed to be saying in Welsh. (I have a very poor working memory and always have had. Mental arithmetic tests in Junior School were a nightmare for me.)
To get round this, I translate as Aran speaks. As soon as he’s said a phrase, such as “I met someone in the pub last night…” I start saying the Welsh whilst also listening to the next bit of the sentence. It sounds as though it would be a disaster, but it works for me. However, I have to admit that I’m not learning Welsh this way. I’ve been learning for many years and I’m using SSiW for revision and to help improve my spoken fluency, but I am making good progress and doing a challenge each day by this method, unorthodox though it may be!
I was trying to think of something suitably encouraging, but @aran does it so much better. I do admire your determination. I hope that I have not said anything to discourage you - I didn’t mean to. Best of luck with 17 and beyond.
Sue
Goodness, no, you didn’t say anything discouraging - it’s quite the opposite! I’m happy and very thankful for every suggestion, tip and advice! Had to go to work much earlier today, as a fellow cleaning gentleman fell sick, and now, I’m working the graveyard shift. It’s just difficult to answer from my mobile or laptop at work (we call the rather strict no-nonsense supervisor in charge today “Oberbesen”, one could translate it with “chief broom”). I’ll write better and longer replies tomorrow. Diolch an fawr for all the brilliant support here on the forum
It is heartening, encouraging and amazing how my simple statement at the outset and start of this discussion has generated such a wonderful range of views and advice…just shows how positive and worthy this forum can become…
Diolch o galon, Aran, I don’t know what to say to so much kindness…and to so much trust in my ability to learn Welsh. I feel like I’ve made such a mess…going back and repeating Challenges, then do 3 Challenges in a row, just to go back again…and I’ve cheated using vocab printouts. To make things worse, I said so many silly things I didn’t first reflect on. So, I’ve decided to start afresh with the Challenges of the North region - and this time, I have all the precious advice from you and the wonderful people of this forum with me. This time, I want to do it right, without creating an utter chaos…
Oh, yes, one really gets free therapy sessions in the forum…and they ARE effective!
I’m not sure either, but I believe not yet (officially) so Hello @Claudia_Beryan.
Aha …
In your post @henddraig replied to was all you need to do, however, I know, it’s much easier to say then to do but it can happen. If you’re not confident enough (or let’s rather say eager enough) to change your mindset in the first place you might find useful to read one of the books about that aspect. Then you have to realize that you’re always capable of more than you think you are and then you have to set your mind to that famous SSiW “make as many mistakes as possible” mantra.
So, when you’ll be confident with the fact that making a mistake is not a sin here (and not elswhere too) you’ll be there, getting rid off of your perfectionism, not in total, but still in so huge part that you won’t bother anymore if something went slightly wrong, rather correcting that wrong next time than beating yourself at the particular moment because of that “wrong” being done.
Now … turn the switch from “perfectionist” mode to “relaxed” one and carry on.
One thing that helped me a lot when I was running out of time badly was talking over Catrin (or Cat in the southern lessons).
This is still true for me - at least, when I know what I want to say. If I really can’t remember I just have to shut up and listen, but more usually it’s just taken me long enough to start that Catriona is only just behind me. However, so long as I can tell that she’s saying the same thing I’ll count it as a win, provided she doesn’t overtake me before I get to the end of the sentence!
To get round this, I translate as Aran speaks. As soon as he’s said a phrase, such as “I met someone in the pub last night…” I start saying the Welsh whilst also listening to the next bit of the sentence.
You’re certainly not alone in this - and it also implies that you’re able to come out with whole (small) chunks of accurate Welsh without it needing any conscious thought at all.
Yes, that’s definitely a point I have to work on; a point I’ve been working on for years.
You know, disapproving of mistakes and avoiding them at any cost isn’t the kind of perfectionism that I suffer from. Actually, I don’t mind mistakes at all, as it means that you have choices; and making mistakes, as Aran thankfully never gets tired of preaching, means having a chance to learn and getting a better and deeper understanding. What concerns me is being able to keep up with others. No, I don’t aim to be the best, but I long to be just one of them - one of them that move on and achieve something. I hate the feeling of lagging behind - and this is the point my “perfectionism” kicks in. It keeps telling me: “For once in your life, DON’T be the worst here!”
This is not an option for me, as I’m hard of hearing and need to concentrate to understand the professors. To make up for this, I use the pause button a little more often…
Kick it out harshly and without any mercy. This is what you’ll have to do because it stops you to acheave exactly this - to go with the rest of those you speak with. You’ll lag for about 10 or so minutes and then it might even turn out you’re better than them. You just need to relax and when you’d acheave that without thinking how much you lag each time you get into conversation you’re a winner!
I’ve done Challenge 16 yesterday and would have never gotten 47%. I got 3 of 4 answers right, at most…and they were easy and short sentences, repetitions of the very first few Challenges. All other answers consisted of mere fragments of sentences or even only a couple of words I could remember.
I thank God that my sons didn’t inherit my learning impaired brain…you cannot imagine how thankful I am for this!
