Your problems - learning Welsh or other languages - what are the challenges?

What are your biggest challenges?

I’ll answer these as a pre-SSIW learner of Welsh and a present SSIS learner of Spanish (if that makes sense). The main difference (apart from being lucky enough to have the SSI method available to learn Spanish) in learning Spanish is that I’ve already learned another language as an adult - as a result I have a much much different attitude this time round than when I learned Welsh.

When learning Welsh the biggest challenge was (if I strip everything back to the core) simply the belief that it would be possible for me as an adult to learn another language.

With Spanish it’s finding someone to practice with and the time to do that!

What has come closest to stopping you learning?

When I originally learned Welsh I didn’t really come close to learning once I finally got underway as I’d reach a point in life where I was sort of ready. That sounds a bit odd as I write it but basically I had gone off travelling and in my travels began to appreciate more my own background and culture. So by the time I came back I was absolutely determined to learn. I was also “unburdened” by a job, relationship or kids at the time so I had plenty of free time to fill! As far as learning a language it was a bit of a perfect storm really. Had I not had the time and determination to study Welsh intensively at the beginning I’m not sure I ever would have succeeded - as it was during this intensive time at the beginning that I began to see the wood for the trees and understand that it’s all about sentence structures and not memorising 1000’s of new words.

Spanish has been totally different - I don’t have the same motivation from an identity point of view and with a full time job, two young kids, an allotment and moving house twice within six months - I have virtually no free time! The initial motivation this time was that I would one day like to spend some time in the Wladfa in Patagonia. However this on its own would not be enough, the major difference is that this time I actually enjoy the learning process and due to travelling over an hour a day in the car the SSIS course suits me perfectly both in the fact that it’s an audio course and in the fantastic way it builds up your ability to use the language. The only reason I’ve had to “stop” learning is waiting for new lessons (disclaimer - I’m not moaning I promise, I appreciate your very busy :wink: Although what this has highlighted to me that even with a global language such as Spanish there is nothing out there that holds a candle to the SSIS method. I’ve tried and looked for other resources but have soon tired of them. If it wasn’t for SSIS I definitely wouldn’t have persevered with learning Spanish.

What makes you think you might not succeed?

When I first began to learn Welsh the overwhelming barrier was the idea that it would be impossible for any mortal human without a language learning superpower to learn another language once they’d passed the age of 7 years old. I just could not see how it would be possible for me to remember the 1000’s of new words of a new language. I’d always wanted to learn Welsh even before I went travelling but there was a deep seated feeling that I never thought it possible I could do it, which always held me back from really trying. This I believe is wide spread and fed by the poor courses and materials out there and previously poor experience in schools or night courses. The vast majority of language courses seem to be designed the overriding aim of ensuring whoever uses them never succeeds in learning the language and putting them off ever trying again in the future. They seem a bit like as if you go to your first driving lesson and the instructor insists that you wear a bind fold, well of course your not going to learn to drive like that but it doesn’t mean that you’ll never be able to drive, you just need to find an instructor who doesn’t insist you wear a blindfold when he teaches you!

Learning Spanish (having learned Welsh) I didn’t have the problem of not believing whether I was able to learn another language and it’s like the world being lifted of your shoulders. This time I can simply enjoy the journey, laugh at my mistakes and be far more relaxed when I feel like I haven’t quite understood something (confident in the knowledge that it’ll appear obvious at some point further down the line). This time I simply play the CDs in the car to break up the monotony of my commute and enjoy the challenge. I’m off to Majorca next month so am looking forward to my first real experience of using Spanish with native speakers - although I’ll have to learn to apologise for not speaking Catalan first!

(Anyone know what “I’m sorry I don’t speak Catalan” is in Catalan?)

Are your main challenges different now to what you felt at the beginning?

Having learned Welsh and now use the language everyday both at work and at home I suppose the main challenge is the refinement of the written language.

Regarding Spanish, I don’t think I’m far enough down the line yet to have change my main focus which is to reach a level where I can confidently converse in day to day matters.

Was there anything that held you back from getting started? (In general, I mean, not specifically with SSiW).

As I mentioned above really, the over riding barrier was the idea that it would be simply impossible for me to learn another language as an adult. I still remember the sort of Eureka moment with Welsh where it finally hit a after a couple of weeks of solid study where I sat back and thought “hang on, this all just comes down to the different sentence structures and how to change the verbs to express these in the different tenses, which actually doesn’t require you to learn all that much really. The vocab just follows with practice - and the more you speak the more you remember by providing a context for all the stuff your trying to remember”. After that hit me everything got a lot easier!

Steve, Amy, Dai, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi…:slight_smile: That’s a hugely generous amount of detail, can’t thank you enough…:slight_smile:

@Kev - sorry, I wasn’t clear - I meant the listening practices for the old Course 1 (the new ones aren’t quite ready yet, although they won’t be long) - how are you finding the listening practices for Course 2? Doing them before you’ve got to the end of the course ought to be a bit of a headache!

It’s great if you can survive without the pause button - yes, I’m definitely thinking you should try five sessions that you haven’t done previously - it should make you feel as if your brain has turned to porridge, but it also ought to be a genuinely valuable neurological kick onwards. Yes, 4000 words is quite a lot, which is why it usually takes a long, painful time of listening to radio and TV before people get to the critical mass - and that’s why we’re working on a different approach which should be a lot faster, and much easier (for people who’ve finished doing the courses)…:slight_smile:

@Andy - yup, regular conversation is the magic ingredient, no doubt about it. And if you’re understanding anything with Tili, you’re doing excellently! I’m looking forward enormously to hearing how you go on Bootcamp - I think it’s going to be a watershed experience for you…:slight_smile:

@Steve - great Douglas Adams analogy, and you’re 100% on the money there - and since you know that’s the main issue for you, I’m certain you’ll crack it at some point - and you’re already doing all the right things about making some Welsh interaction a regular part of your day, and that sort of stuff. Your commitment and belief mean that you are an absolutely bolted-on future fluent Welsh speaker…:star:

@Amy - I think the hearing/understanding issue is absolutely key, and not currently satisfactorily addressed by any course materials I know of, including our own. I’m really looking forward to that changing in the next few months…:wink: I hope we’re going to be able to help more with the opportunities to speak side of things as well - I’m imagining our improved approach to meetups helping as a first step, but I’m also hoping that we can get to the stage where there’s almost always a Welsh conversation (maybe via G+ Hangouts) happening on the site any time you log on, that you can easily join or eavesdrop on…:slight_smile:

@Dai - really can’t thank you enough for such a detailed response, diolch yn fawr iawn y muchisimas gracias!..:seren: You clearly don’t need any tips…:slight_smile: And the good news is that we are very close indeed to publishing the new Spanish course - probably with 10 new sessions off the bat, and then another 15 following in pretty close order (they’re being mastered and imported at the moment)…:slight_smile:

What are your biggest challenges?

  1. I suppose the big one is the lack of opportunity to speak and hear Welsh in the wild. Seeing as I live in SE Wales, it’s one that’s unlikely to change, unfortunately. More bilingual events needed to promote the language and connect speakers, I think.

  2. Rolling my r’s! I know it’s not that important, and it might sound petty, but there are so many words that make me cringe when I say them because my tongue won’t work properly! It does really bother me sometimes because I think it makes my Welsh sound unnatural.

What has come closest to stopping you learning? What makes you think you might not succeed?

Since starting with SSiW - dim byd! However, sometimes there are overwhelming days when there seems like there’s just too much to get my head around and I’ll never get to where I want to be. But the forum is a great antidote to that. :slight_smile:

Are your main challenges different now to what you felt at the beginning?

Even though the specifics are different, in many ways it’s still the same, i.e. needing to focus on being pleased with what I can say/understand rather than frustrated with what I can’t.

Was there anything that held you back from getting started? (In general, I mean, not specifically with SSiW).

I’ve always wanted to be a Welsh speaker, but there was so much negativity surrounding the language when I was young (school, community, sometimes at home) that my initial short-lived attempts were almost doomed to fail. Diolch byth for my Welsh-speaking relatives in Ceredigion and SSiW. That’s all I can say! :slight_smile:

More prosaically: just not having the time to commit to regular classes. (Although now I’m glad that I didn’t!)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Jon. Really interesting points.

It’s probably medium term rather than short term, but I do hope that we’ll reach the point of being able to make it easier and more natural to find and fit into Welsh speaking communities even in the south east - some of the findability stuff that will help for international learners should also be useful for learners in Wales, but if we can get a growth model with other languages, we’ll be very keen to plough as much as possible back into promoting real use of Welsh throughout Wales…:slight_smile: I’m also thinking that the next stage of ffrinDiaith, which is very likely to have S4C involved, will be a huge step forward.

Those Rs - cross it off your list and roll with it. Most everyone knows first language speakers who can’t say their Rs - and I share your pain when it comes to ‘…TR…’, which just doesn’t work for me - but as with all examples of self-consciousness, pretty much no-one else will ever notice, and those that do will remember it for all of about a second or two. It’s only front and centre for you, so if you ignore it, it stops existing.

needing to focus on being pleased with what I can say/understand rather than frustrated with what I can’t.

Oh yes. That’s a vital element for every language learner in the world…:star:

I’m not long home from a depressing & demoralising Welsh class, I left early after the unnecessarily stressful experience of practising exam listening comprehension - I’m not actually doing the exam but half the class are.
So, it seems a good time to contribute to this thread.

What are your biggest challenges?

  1. learning and retaining vocabulary
  2. listening comprehension - I’m on Course 3 lesson 5 but still don’t understand course 2 listening sessions.I’ve been listening to Radio Cymru for a couple of years now; I recognize many more words & phrases but rarely understand even half of what is being said

What has come closest to stopping you learning?

  1. negative experiences in classes
  2. slow pace of learning in classes; it seems to take motivated adults, who are not studying any other subjects, 5+ yrs to get to GCSE standard
  3. sorry to have to say this, but, the most significant factor for me is wondering why I’m persisting with it when so few Welsh speakers respond to my efforts to use Welsh. 10 trips to Welsh speaking areas in the last 2 yrs - often hear no Welsh, but, even when people obviously speak Welsh, they usually speak English to me. I can literally count the positive responses on the fingers of one hand. So, when I speak Welsh, it’s with other learners - probably not the best way.
  4. realising how much I still have to learn

What makes you think you might not succeed?
See question 1

Are your main challenges different now to what you felt at the beginning?
Yes, in the main
When I started I went to classes and was pleased to learn anything - seemed to make good progress initially, but I struggled with pronunciation. When I started SSinW I loved it; I could see my progress in small steps - every lesson was manageable and a definite step on the way, and there was constant repetition of a correct model - success bred success.
I’m still not confident abut pronunciation - have to resort to Ivona to check. Other challenges are different: I’m more aware of how much I don’t know and/or haven’t learned fully securely; my rate of progress has slowed because I find it harder to retain new learning.

Was there anything that held you back from getting started? (In general, I mean, not specifically with SSiW).
Not really. I’d decided that, as I was living in Wales, it would be a courtesy to learn the language. Then it was simply a matter of finding a course I could attend fairly regularly while still working part-time at a pretty demanding job with irregular hours and frequent changes to my programme. I asked around to see what courses people recommended and settled for Wlpan through Bangor uni; interestingly, no-one mentioned SSinW - that came later from fellow learners.

Oh, kime, I’m sorry you’ve had such a demoralising class - it’s obviously given you a bit of a kick in the teeth, and that’s the last thing anyone needs. Listening comprehension is a particularly nasty one, because generally the only time there’s any consistent focus on it is prior to an exam - and it’s probably the single most challenging part of learning a new language.

I hope that the new material we’re developing to help with listening will be useful for you - in the meantime, it might be worthwhile to remember that the process of decoding a new language in real time is incredibly complicated - more challenging in many ways than what went on at Bletchley Park, and with a LOT less time available! - so finding it hard is absolutely normal.

With regards to Welsh speakers - unfortunately, it has been very heavily drummed in to Welsh speakers, over and over again, that speaking Welsh to someone who isn’t a Welsh speaker is at best rude and at worst ‘racist’. Yup, it’s nonsense, but it’s helped create an environment where most Welsh speakers will automatically use English with people they don’t know. You have to take the lead with this - ask them politely to speak Welsh with you because you’re trying to learn, and the vast majority will be delighted and will do exactly that - and remember that you want to speak Welsh the next time you meet them…:slight_smile:

As Jon said, thinking about how much you still have to learn is a bit like looking down when you’re on a tightrope - not a good idea! There’s always more to learn, in every language, including your own first language - and the key is the celebrate what you can say - which of course is trickier if you’re finding it hard to get into conversations.

It’s normal, also, to feel less progress as you go further, although your rate of improvement is almost certainly slowly increasing - but as a percentage of what you know, it’s far, far less, so it doesn’t feel as impressive. Have you tried to find a conversation partner through ffrinDiaith? It sounds as though that might be a really valuable step for you.

With the Course 2 listening sessions - when you say you don’t understand them, do you mean that you have gaps of comprehension (ie even if you replay them, or pause to think, they still have sentences that you don’t understand) or is it about not getting all of it when they’re going at full speed? If it’s the latter, it might be interesting for you to try listening to them at 2x normal speed - there are various programmes that can increase the speed of an mp3 file - a couple of weeks of that, and there’s a very good chance that you’ll find their ordinary speed much easier to follow.

I hope some of that helps - if you can cope with Course 3 lessons, you’ve definitely got a huge amount of Welsh, and almost certainly only really need a regular conversation partner to realise how far you’ve come (plus our improved listening exercises in due course).

I hope this is some help, and thank you very much for taking the time to share in such detail.

Just posted a blog inspired in part by this thread, so thank you all again…:star:

From a book I’m reading by Kató Lomb:

“…language is the only thing worth knowing even poorly”

In other words it’s no good for a doctor to know only a bit of medicine, or a concert pianist to sort of play the piano, but knowing even a few words of another language is always useful. I like that :slight_smile:

That is rather lovely.

There must be other things, though? Or my life as a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none is starting to look a bit misplaced…:shock:

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I am on Course 1 and still a long way to go and a lot to learn! Living in South Wales I agree with Jon not often you hear spoken Welsh. My two grandchildren attend Welsh schools, and I speak, or shall I rather say try to speak with what I have learnt, when they come to visit. They love to hear what I have learnt and they speak to me in Welsh! I find the listening sessions hard and I think will I ever get it, nice to hear I am not the only one.

What are your biggest challenges?
Keeping motivated when it is so apparent that the language is seen as pretty irrelevant round here in the South. Even the welsh speaking mums at school speak English to each other. I constantly feel like l’m asking a rather odd favour if I ask to practice with people and it’s getting a bit wearing.
This is quite different to my experience learning German, when I arrived at college in September unable to speak or understand, except on the most rudimentary level (but with a good grounding in structure etc) and came home at xmas functionally fluent in almost all respects.

What has come closest to stopping you learning?
Nothing, thankfully. We’re in this welsh education business for the long haul so I need to have a handle on what’s going on.

What makes you think you might not succeed?
I’m finding it hard to envisage getting to the stage when I can just slip into a conversation, mainly for reasons mentioned already. I would be sad to put in all this effort and not become a"fully fledged" speaker.

Are your main challenges different now to what you felt at the beginning?
I’m feeling less enthusiasm for the project. Whatever way you look at it, learning a language is a serious commitment, ideally taking up a significant chunk of headspace even when you’re not practising with other people. When I was on course one, I used to wake up in the night monologing about dogs and windows and so on. Nowadays I tend to have to remind myself to make up sentences from time to time, but the initial magic has gone.
I guess when my life is just slightly less challenging - hopefully in Sept when littlest starts school - I’ll be able to build in more “fun” activities like watching TV etc. I have a secret ambition to make it to bootcamp one day, and would love to test how much difference that makes, but the chances aren’t looking good at the moment.
Did you mention a permanent google + hangout? I’d love to be able to drop in on that. Even the effort of arranging Skype sessions with strangers is beyond me at this particular stage of life.

Was there anything that held you back from getting started?
Yes, I had been getting so frustrated that I couldn’t get to a class, and didn’t have time to try and teach myself. Then I found ssiw, which I do on my way to work. So that solved that problem anyway - thank you!!

What are your biggest challenges?

Having a welsh language that I can use in everyday real situations. Most people I encounter on my journey into welsh are patient. However, the few that stick in my mind are those that tell me what I said is wrong and they would never say it like that, or those that listen to what I said, something of the level of “mae hi’n braf heddiw” and then rattle off a big long sentence or two in response. That can be disheartening.

What has come closest to stopping you learning?

For me running before I can walk is how I seem to learn. I only ever got as far as C1 lesson 7 or 8 with SSIW before life got in the way of being able to have the time and energy to practise. What I did do though was read grammar books and the old wlpan book that I bought in a charity shop. The thing that has almost stopped me is that none of my friends speak welsh so I have no one to spend good quality practise time with.

What makes you think you might not succeed?

Since I discovered the SSIW way, I know success is possible due to how rapidly I picked it up. Commitment to putting in the spade work is my only real enemy. Laziness.

Are your main challenges different now to what you felt at the beginning?

Yes. At first I didn’t have the confidence to speak and when I did it was unfortunate that it was with someone who laughed at my attempt. I have got over that little hillock. Now when someone asks me “ti’n iawn?” by the time it takes to translate to english and to select an appropriate response, my mouth takes over and answers in english, then annoyed at my mouth the first phrase that come out is invariably “wedi blino” and thus ends the conversation :smiley:

Was there anything that held you back from getting started? (In general, I mean, not specifically with SSiW).

I was never able to get to classes, they were always inaccessible as they were either evening or too far away to be practical. I can only get to the one I attend at the moment because my wife has carers sitting with her for the two hours I get off.

I imagine a world where places like our local community hall have informal learn welsh groups a couple of times a week, where our welsh is accelerated because for some time every week we are living welsh and not passive receptacles of verbs and structure. I have already introduced my family to welsh, little phrases of welsh are becoming the norm in our house and it makes me smile.

I hope my answers make sense, there is so much to say, but everything clamours together at once to be said and seems to me incoherent.

Thank you for SSIW. I love Level 1. It has the long sentences that push my brain into overdrive :smiley:

What are your biggest challenges?
My biggest challenge is finding enough time to learn and practice. At the moment, I do my lessons to and from work. It is a 40 minute walk each way, so enough time to get an entire lesson and maybe 1 practice session (usually a listening practice). I don’t usually get much time to do ALL the daily practices, and I don’t get the time, or the privacy, to do Skype/Google+ chats. This said, I don’t really feel that any of this is hindering my progress at all. The only challenge I have right now, in course 3, is getting my head around the short forms. I’m fine with them, just getting words like “Wedais i” and “Welais i” confused. The same with “Wnei di” and “Ae di”, and when to use “Wna i”, “Wneith e/hi” etc.
While I try not to use the pause button AT ALL, I am finding that I’m using it a fair bit for these future-future constructs covered in depth in lesson 8, and this has slowed me down somewhat. I have started to move on to lesson 9 with the view of coming back to the last 2 lessons before moving on to lesson 10.
I am also following the New course as well, where “Dywedaist ti” has been introduced, so this is helping with the distinction between “Wedais i” and “Welais i”, but only a little bit at the moment (I’m at Challenge 9 in the Southern course).

What has come closest to stopping you learning?
Nothing (yet!). Every day I’m learning new words either from the lessons or from words I pick up from radio, TV or at meet ups. But then I come to look for words I want to learn (to describe my work, for example) that isn’t covered in SSiW, where I may need to refer to a dictionary or translator. The problem with this is that I will need to learn these words from the written word, so to hear how the word is pronounced isn’t so easy, and can be much harder for anyone who hasn’t learned to read, write or understand the alphabet or basic grammar. I can’t see how this would make people want to stop learning, but without understanding the basics of the written word, it could lessen their chances of moving on if the learner feels they’re not learning to talk about the things they feel they should be specialising in.

What makes you think you might not succeed?
I’m a determined soul! If I’m struggling with something, I leave it for that moment, then return to it later on. Usually taking a break helps me to progress and allow what I’m learning to sink in. For this reason, I don’t really feel like I won’t succeed, but I do feel sometimes that the path to success will be a longer one than I might originally anticipate.

Are your main challenges different now to what you felt at the beginning? Was there anything that held you back from getting started? (In general, I mean, not specifically with SSiW).
Before I started with SSiW, I was learning mainly written Welsh, and didn’t really give any attention to speaking Welsh. This is very much down to shyness, and not being able to find a course that was engaging enough to encourage me to speak the Welsh I was learning. The wonders that are smartphones has helped me to change this, since it was through discovering that SSiW had an app available for iPhone with lessons designed specifically for learning how to speak Welsh, which made me decide to give it a go (and a New Years Resolution I made at the time!). While following the SSiW course hasn’t really diminished my shyness, it has given me a lot of confidence to use the Welsh I have learned. As well as starting a monthly meet, attending more established meets in Swansea and Brighton, and the forthcoming Bootcamp I will be attending, my ability to use my Welsh grows with each experience and will continue to do so.
So, are my main challenges different now to what I felt at the beginning? Absolutely! At the beginning, I decided to try a new approach with the aim of becoming a confident speaker within a couple of years. This happened MUCH sooner than I expected, and now my biggest challenge is to achieve conversational fluency where I’m not thinking too much about what I want to say before I say it, or “crossing the bridge” from learning to using, if you will.

I feel like a successful learner of Welsh (started in 2009) and an unsuccessful learner of Spanish (started in 2013). I’ll answer your specific questions below, but what I think the difference boils down to is:

  1. With Welsh, I had a clear way forward step by step with SSIW until it ‘ran out’ at the end of Course 2 (before Course 3 existed), but at that point I was able to keep teaching myself from grammar books and reading books and such. With Spanish, once I ran out of SSIW lessons, I was thrown on less-useful and less-fun resources like Pimsleur, which were made even less fun by repeating what I’d already learned in SSIS.

  2. With Welsh, I felt part of a community of learners on the forum. With Spanish, I haven’t had that.

  3. I never set out to do more than learn a few words of Welsh, so for a long time I had no great expectations of what I wanted to achieve. For me that may have been a more productive attitude than ‘I’ve always thought I should speak Spanish.’

  4. This above all: I fell in love with Welsh but haven’t with Spanish. The weirdness of Welsh made me laugh from the start; Spanish is too familiar, like a cousin. I don’t have any particular ‘in’ to the vastness of Spanish-language culture, or any country I am predisposed to be highly curious about. I could use Spanish every single day – in fact, I do exchange a few words every single day with someone at work – but wanting to better at that hasn’t been enough, so far.

What are your biggest challenges?

When I started with Welsh, an obvious challenge was finding anyone around Washington, D.C. to practice with. But I dug hard and bothered everyone I could think of, and ultimately solved that problem. There are advantages to having a minority interest: birds of a feather are excited and eager to flock together. Another challenge was knowing how to pronounce words I’d only seen written – especially knowing how to pronouce diphthongs (ie versus ei) and knowing where syllables split. The word llyfrgelloedd baffled me for ages.

In the middle, the challenge was moving forward when I ran out of SSIW lessons at the end of Course 2 and still had a lot to learn. That was tough, and I wouldn’t have moved forward without Gareth King’s grammar reference book Modern Welsh, which I still use constantly.

At my current stage of Welsh, my challenge is to learn to write ‘proper’ Welsh, including literary Welsh, which is crucial in the Twitter-based Welsh poetry course I’m doing if only to fit meaningful statements into seven-syllable lines. I screw up mutations and sentence structures and have a ludicrous patched-together knowledge, and sometimes I feel like I’m moving backwards rather than forwards, because I have no organized system for learning.

With Spanish, the biggest challenge is not having enough SSIS lessons yet to take me forward. Pimsleur and Michel Thomas aren’t good enough substitutes. I was also discouraged by all the irregular verbs in Spanish, after the simplicity of verbs in Welsh, and by the five million rules about the subjunctive tense. After putting a good five or six months of steady effort into Spanish, I just petered out early last summer (to work on Finnish for a bit before going to Helsinki) and haven’t gone back to it.

What has come closest to stopping you learning?

With Welsh, I don’t think I really have come close to stopping learning. When my enthusiasm has flagged, what’s gotten it up again has been finding something new to work on – reading, now cynghanedd.

With Spanish, well, I have stopped learning, for (a) lack of a clear way forward, (b) lack of a forum or other community, © lack of excitement and love. Surely © is the most important, and I don’t know how to manufacture it.

What makes you think you might not succeed?

I can’t ever be a part of an ordinary Welsh-speaking community, and I can’t ever speak and hear like somone who is, or have the vocabulary and flexibility I’d like. Sad but true. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to follow mumbled bits of Pobol y Cwm.

With Spanish, I’ve got to get over the sense of being a dropout learner before I can move on at all, and I don’t know if I’ll even try until there’s more SSIS available. Also, with Spanish, I have frighteningly many accomplished second-language speakers around me – it was easier to feel like a successful Welsh learner from the start, since I was the only Welsh learner I knew.

I’m of two minds about whether my experience with Welsh will help me with Spanish. Learning Welsh has shown me that I can get comfortable in a second-language . . . but also shown me what it took to get where I am. I’ve spent part of almost every day for the past five years doing something to improve my Welsh. I can’t see myself wanting to do that with Spanish – and I resented Spanish a bit for taking time from Welsh. I was cheating on Cymraeg! So, what level of time and commitment am I willing to give to Spanish? I don’t know. To be honest, I kept yearning to be working on Swedish or Norwegian, both of which appeal to me (at least in the abstract!) for no sane reason.

Are your main challenges different now to what you felt at the beginning?

With Welsh, sure. I’m not trying to build the dike now, but to patch a billion little annoying leaks. (Does Du y bydd y nos make sense? If a question starts with Beth…, do I mutate the immediately-following verb form?) Beyond that – like a lot of SSIWers, I found speaking easier than listening for a long time, as I built up vocabulary word by word. Now, though, my listening (and reading) is better than my speaking – there are quite a few words that I recognize and understand but don’t have under enough control to come up with in a conversation.

With Spanish, I’m still at the beginning!

Was there anything that held you back from getting started?

Nothing held me back from starting with Welsh because I didn’t intentionally start with Welsh! I just came to learn how to pronounce place names, and stayed.

Inertia is all that held me back from starting Spanish. Inertia, and the time I spent on Welsh.

What’s holding me back now from starting Swedish or Norwegian? Mainly the sense that either would be another ridiculous language for someone who lives in DC to study. Well, that, and not having SSISwedish or SSINorwegian available, which means I’d have to try inferior methods, which inevitably run out before taking you very far.

@Diane - * snap * to everything you said!! Having a clear way forward, being part of a community of learners, not having great expectations, and falling in love with Welsh - total recipe for success.

And “learning Welsh has shown me that I can get comfortable in a second-language . . . but also shown me what it took to get where I am.” That is exactly how I feel - I know it’s possible, but looking back at the effort it took, it almost seems harder now - terrifying, even - to do it again with another language. Ignorance is bliss!

I’m inspired by this thread into adding my musings. (BTW, how do you get the bold effect in the text?)

What are your biggest challenges?

“Challenges” may be an exaggerated term, but this is what I think about often re my learning Welsh:

  1. There is no need to hurry
  2. There is much to learn still
  3. When and where can I have a chat next? (thank heavens for Skype and Google Hangout)
  4. I need more time
  5. On the road to fluency (however that is defined) my problems are surely akin to those of Sysyphus and Tantalus

What has come closest to stopping you learning?

I’ve never really thought about stopping, but I do slow down from time to time - which I find actually helps my learning in some weird way.

What makes you think you might not succeed?

I don’t think about that, mainly because I believe the notion of success in learning a language is irrelevant. By which I mean that no one ever succeeds fully in learning any language, languages change continuously, so one can never really stop; and no one ever fully fails in learning a language: thinking of my first SSiW lesson, I felt successful then, because I had Iearnt a little bit of Welsh.

Maybe the notion of success in language learning is like success in learning to swim: if you don’t drown when you fall in, you’re doing extremely well.

Are your main challenges different now to what you felt at the beginning?

At the beginning, I knew nothing, and after, I did not know how much I did not know; but now I know how little I know, and how much I still want to learn, and I am quite comfortable with that. At the beginning, I had no challenges, really.

Was there anything that held you back from getting started?

Very luckily, no. I had no pressure whatsoever to learn Welsh, but I can’t help but wonder if, were I living in Wales, there would have been pressure, and might that have affected my learning.

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@Louis: You can make a word bold by using two asterisks either side of it.

@Gavin: I am in exactly the same place as you with regards to trying to get my head around the short forms. We’re even on the same lesson! Perhaps we can Skype and get them nailed! :slight_smile:

@Aran: Diolch yn fawr iawn for your reply. Sorry I’m a bit slow with the response. The stuff you were saying about connecting speakers sounds really interesting and useful, and I’ll definitely do my best to try and ignore those painful-sounding r’s!

Louis van Ekert: (BTW, how do you get the bold effect in the text?)

With asterisks. Put * on either side of a word to italicize it, and ** on either side of a word to bold it. :slight_smile:

What are your biggest challenges?
Understanding spoken Welsh…when listening to programs or during my weekly chats. Looking up Welsh words I hear. Being unable, in conversation, to say exactly what I’m thinking, as I’m thinking, the way I can in English.
When listening to Pigion or Beti a’i Phobol for the first time, it was shocking to me how little I could understand. I was listening for patterns I’d heard in lessons and couldn’t hear any.
It’s getting easier, but slowly, which is because of my second challenge: looking up Welsh words that I hear but don’t know. There’s three hurdles to overcome in this challenge; the first is finding an accurate and complete reference, the second is getting the spelling right and the third is getting the correct meaning…if the word has more than one of them

What has come closest to stopping you learning?
Nothing so far.

What makes you think you might not succeed?
Nothing so far.

I do think that I won’t be able to really obtain fluency unless I throw myself in the deep end…aka Bootcamp…and while I’m planning and scheming when I can, I’m concerned I may not make it there.

Are your main challenges different now to what you felt at the beginning?
Yes. I remember not understanding anything I heard in Beti a’i Phobol. Now, there’s a lot I still don’t understand, but there’s a lot that I do. In the beginning I felt as though I had so much to learn. I still feel the same way but with that feeling is the sense that I’m on the verge of really understanding…if I can just ‘crack the code/pattern’, so to speak.

Although soon after I have my weekly chat and I feel as though I’m right back at square one

Was there anything that held you back from getting started?
No. I stumbled across SSiW while searching for a pronunciation of a word in a book I was reading. That plus curiosity means I was sucked right in.

What are your biggest challenges?
My slap-dash, disorganised way of learning. Forgetting to tell myself when I hav’nt understood something that: “It’ll come”

What has come closest to stopping you learning?
For me distance and thinking is it worth learning when I can only spend two weeks a year in Wales.

What makes you think you might not succeed?
Not now but when I started thinking I’d never be able to pronounce the masses of Welsh vocab abundant in my head. I clearly can remember thinking I’d never be able to pronounce - Sylweddoli - after trying for weeks…That was truly an Everest for me.

Are your main challenges different now to what you felt at the beginning?
My main one is to try to tune into more regional accents. I meet-up with one old gentleman when I’m in Caernarfon, who has only ever spoke to me in a strong Cofi Welsh accent and it was a nightmare to understand even a few words he said several years ago. I’m up to about 50% comprehension now…

Was there anything that held you back from getting started?
Before SSIW: grammar and mutations; too much English in the evening classes and lack of good distance learning materials.