Tiny questions with quick answers - continuing thread

The Syntax of Welsh (e.g. p. 237) makes a distinction between a direct object (basically a noun phrase) and a verb phrase, and points out that they are both soft mutated. One example they give is “dechreuodd Elen yrru bws” - “Elen started to drive a bus”. The contention is that “yrru bws” is not a direct object, because it is not a nominal phrase. If you agree with that, then a generalisation is a good idea, if you don’t, then it is also good :smile:

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Verb nouns also undergo soft mutation in such circumstances, that’s a well accepted thing- can’t see the problem, as it were- but that is not saying the subject causes contact soft mutation, as Gareth King says in modern Welsh in the paragraph and page you quote above. (" [SUBJECT] o")
If you are impressed by that rule, good for you. If it helps you remember stuff, eve better. I don’t have good enough Welsh to make a decision one way or another, and just going by what I have read and heard from other people, it seems to be a minority view, for what that is worth.
I don’t really think rules of grammar can be “discovered” - they exist in the language because they exist to a certain conscious degree in our heads, this is why they are used, extended, incorrectly applied to irregular verbs etc. If people haven’t come up with that rule in such a length of time, I would say it is probably because it isn’t there. And if Welsh speakers themselves look on soft mutation as being inspired by a long, disparate list of things, and the history behind the reasons for soft mutation of those things is different, I would say there is no need to try to shoehorn the rules into larger, easier groups as it were.
But there are certainly different ways of analysing things, However, as I say, if it helps people to remember, great! Just remember that if I understand correctly, by that analysis the subject is sometimes not obvious, or indeed there at all.

[edit - as an example, I have a friend (a natural Welsh speaker, and translator as it happens, who hates grammar with a vengeance, but one of the few rules he makes sure to follow himself is soft mutating the direct object of a declined verb- not soft mutating after a subject, as it were. How aural Welsh speakers regard these things is important, not just theoretical possibilities of division. Just one very minor example.)

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I am fleeing away!! (Not forever, just from this discussion!). It seems to stem from a tiny question which does not have a quick answer!!! Would it help anyone else if the Grammar buffs started a thread on complex grammar questions??? :grinning:

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I think it might in fact be helpful if advanced learners had a thread to discuss complex grammar questions, and Welsh syntax (that makes me cry) and etymology! I would sometimes read it, feeling like an illiterate peasant girl peeping at well-educated ladies and gentlemen through a key-hole:)

If that means ‘how words derived’, I am actually interested in that, so maybe it needs a separate thread from syntax and deep, dark grammar!!! :wink:

Yeah, this!
I’m interested in it too, and would very much like to research it, but unfortunately the day only has a limited number of hours, so I chose folklore and mythology instead:)
By the way, there is a thread on Welsh etymology here, I’m sure. I remember putting the link to it into my list of helpful threads on this forum.

Update
It’s here:) Welsh Etymology (Word Origins)

Oh, incidentally, though I say there are other writers on grammar, I find it difficult to think of anyone who is a better writer than Gareth King on such stuff for learners! (IMHO, ynfmi)

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To @stella Diolch!!!
to @owainlurch I totally agree, not that I have much experience of other writers!!
p.s. I am putting a post in the comments on SSiW thread, because I think it fits there… contrasting GCSE results with SSiW!!

I beg to differ! Please refer to post 303 - straightforward course 2 stuff!

Grammar buffs - I am in awe! Everybody else just ignore them, I think they’re having fun…

(Wish the smilies were nicer.)

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That’s what it is , though. Subject of the sentence - whether grammatical or semantic - causes SM of next word! It’s a great little rule, and it never fails! :slight_smile:

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You are right, Louis. Following word gets SM (if it can, of course!) after either the grammatical subject - naethon NI fynd, naeth FFRED fynd - or the semantic subject - rhaid inNI fynd, rhaid i FFRED fynd. In these latter examples, the ni and Ffred are not grammatical subjects (because of the sentence structure with rhaid) but they are nevertheless semantic/notional subjects - it is ni and Ffred that are having to do the going; so they still cause SM.

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Oh let’s not start that again! :wink:
It’s a rule you won’t find many places outside Gareth kingvs books, so just remember that if you are learning from any other source.

Nevertheless, that is what he is doing.

Nevertheless, no it ain’t.

Oh no! :frowning:

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Thanks, @garethrking! I appreciate your clarification, and the explanation you wrote to @louis helped me, too. I started learning Welsh in May with SSiW, with absolutely no prior knowledge of or exposure to the language. I’m halfway through Course 2 and I am just beginning to look at the grammar. I am finding your books to be very helpful, clearly written and at a good level for learners. Diolch! :slight_smile:

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Just remember that (as far as I can see) the great majority of grammarian and Welsh teachers would say that you were right at the beginning, and that it is the use of wnaeth ie a declined verb that causes the soft mutation. Not sure if Gareth King agrees with that- ie that it is the majority opinion, but it looks like it to me. Nothing wrong with being in a minority of course.

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Thanks for your input, @owainlurch. I appreciate everyone taking the time to discuss what I thought was just a tiny question with a quick answer… :slight_smile:

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I am very glad to hear that Anna, and those observations mean a lot to me. And thank you for using the books! :slight_smile:

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Sorry, @garethrking, nothing personal of course! I hope that didn’t sound rude. If I had more time I would enjoy reading a grammar book - especially one of yours! But I don’t really have the luxury at the moment so it’s turned into a bit of an experiment to see how little formal grammar I can get away with…

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