Apparently, in Middle Welsh you could sometimes put a pronoun before the verb, for emphasis – as in mi welais, ti welaist etc. for welais i, welaist ti etc. (Fe/ef was the equivalent of modern e/o.) So mi was originally just for talking about yourself (because it really did mean mi) – but then again, fe was just for ‘he’.
But Welsh sentence structure shifted round to normally having the verb second, generally with some sort of particle before it – like yr giving us all those literary-sounding rydw i etc. forms from yr ydwyf i, or na(d) for negatives, like nad oes -> does. And so mi and fe on the front of the verb got kind of re-interpreted as pre-verbal particles, and lost their link to being just for one person – according to what you read, mi got generalized in the North, and fe in the South. So it’s interesting that the South still feels that mi sounds like you mean ‘I’ – I have to say it trips me up half the time when I hear it, and my brain goes from Mi oedden nhw to “I was - no, wait a minute, hang on - they were…”
Yes, I find that “mi” really confusing (but then, I would find “fe” equally confusing).
And as (I hope I’m correct in saying), authoritative sources (like Gareth and Aran) say they are completely optional (at least in speech), I never use them myself, and try to remember to skip over them when reading. When listening to the fluent Welsh speech of others, I probably don’t hear them half the time (unless perhaps they are stressed for emphasis).
Edit: oops, never say never: ISTR in the old courses, there is the “taswn…mi faswn…” pattern taught. So maybe sometimes you have to use them. One of many things I need to revisit…
Um, actually, Gareth is the only authoritative source here! I’m just commenting as a daily, bread-and-butter kind of advanced Welsh learner living in a Welsh-speaking environment… Karl Pilkington to Gareth’s David Attenborough…
In the Dyfi Valley, the ‘Mi’ is definitely used in speech and I have also heard it used around Dolgellau.
The other thing that confused me is that sometimes the ‘Mi’ isn’t said, but the mutation it causes is still there. To start with, I kept thinking that people were saying something negative and expected a ‘ddim’ to follow.
Now I tend to depend on body language and context, particularly since some people reduce the ddim to just the ‘… m’ as well, as in dw i’m.
You just have to go with the flow. If the person you’re speaking to uses the ‘Mi’ and you don’t, they will understand you perfectly. Only a tutor might query it (the ‘Mi’ is taught on the Northern courses).
Soooo, on Pobol Y Cwm I keep hearing something like ‘twil’. It seems to be a kind of pet name or something, bit like ‘bach’ but I’m not sure. Can anyone shed any light on it?
I think they have a use, not just as an ‘um’. They are, to my understanding, positive markers and they cause a soft mutation. I believe that even if you leave them out the mutation should still exist. Await confirmation.
I take your point. Given that they have a grammatical function and cause a mutation, it’s probably not particularly helpful to think of them as just fillers. I’ll forget that idea.
What I think I need to do is get better at spotting them in speech (on the radio and on S4C mainly, since I don’t get to hear much Welsh otherwise, most days).
Confirmed. And in many types of the spoken language, the mutation does indeed remain even if you leave Fe and Mi out - part of the widespread generalising of SM with inflected verbs.
Hi. I’ve just started doing Level One (North). . I’m really enjoying mself. I’m not sure if I’ve put this question in the right place, so apologies if I’m mucking up the thread. My question is about the word ‘when’. In lesson 7, you said pan was used if it was a statement ( e.g. When you started) and pryd if it was a question (e.g. When did you start). But in lesson 8, pryd seems to be used for both. Can someone clarify how they should be used. Thank you!
Ideal place for question, but I tended to think the advice given correct, although rules are rarely sacrosanct in Welsh, as @garethrking would, tell you. He can, if about at the moment, answer your question properly! I’m just saying Croeso/Welcome to the Forum!
